Don’t forget the survey on the new translation at The Tablet. CLICK HERE
It varies from day to day according to the results. But.. hey! Have some fun.
My friend Fr. Finigan suggests this music while you fill it out.
[wp_youtube]hI1nPd7hezM[/wp_youtube]
Perhaps the most annoying song ehvvverrrr.
Coat of Arms by D Burkart
on 26 July: Fr. Jacques Hamel, martyred 8 years ago in France: “Killed in hatred of the Faith. I hope he is declared a martyr soon.”
on 26 July: Fr. Jacques Hamel, martyred 8 years ago in France: “https://catholicexchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/21st-Century-Martyr-Pic.png”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “Regarding the Carmelites in Colorado Springs… my understanding is that they are “independent” from other Carmels, that they don’t have…”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: ““There is not a lack of vocations in the Catholic Church. There is a lack of vocations in the Novus…”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “happy mom Names, please, Bishop and prior Bishop False witness”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “Were we not told that by their fruits we shall know them? Uttered two thousand years ago and still true…”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “@ BeatifyStickler: Perhaps I should not have mentioned it since I have no immediate knowledge, as my citation of “ten…”
on Daily Rome Shots 1086 – Clerical Guayabera Shirts: “Dear Father, For those of us with large, young, homeschool families whose only chance to get to Rome is viewing…”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “Demographics is destiny, they say. Several years ago I went on a retreat given by the Hermits of Our Lady…”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “TheCavalierHatherly And if memory serves, the name of that line is called the ideal line.”
on Daily Rome Shots 1086 – Clerical Guayabera Shirts: “@edm: It certainly looks like it. I am familiar with them and I don’t like them.” on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “A saintly former bishop of my diocese once said there is no such thing as a lack of vocations, but…”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “The powers that be in the Church see this divergence as a feature not a bug. They think that one…”
on We’ve now had decades to study the map….: “I hate to tell you, @monstrance, but the Carmelites in Colorado Springs are not in communion with the Church. The…”
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since Sat., 25 Nov. 2006:
Looks like they’ve cottoned on. I’m now getting this:
Survey Restriction
Sorry, but you are not allowed to take this survey more than once. If you like, you can go through your survey again, and change your answers.
It is not unreasonable to ask people to take the survey only once.
Happily, lots of people read this blog. Hopefully, all of them will go over there and contribute.
However, some people will probably delete the “cookies” from their browser’s history and take the survey more than once.
If I knew how to do that I would…
I took the test, and I listened to the Laughing Policeman whilst taking in. Oh my.
Ah, the old music hall!
The corresponding American classic: The Okeh Laughing Record
Will note in passing that if you have more than one “device” . . . . :-)
“It is not unreasonable to ask people to take the survey only once.” But Father, but Father!! If they change the survey, isn’t that a new survey which can be taken again? ;-)
[You have a point.]
However, some people will probably delete the “cookies” from their browser’s history and take the survey more than once.
Yup, and engage IP cloaking as well.
My theory has long been that many of the detrimental effects of the imposition of the Vox Clara 2010 product will be inflicted subliminally. [LOL! Perhaps over time we can heal the damage caused by decades of saying “for you and for all”!] Also, ten months is not really a very long time to fully evaluate the likely damage and possible benefits of the new missal not only in terms of the product itself but of the process by which it has been forced on English-speaking Catholics.
My feelings, for example, have evolved a bit over the past two years in that for quite a while my resentment was directed at the translators employed by the second generation, eviscerated ICEL. In reality the translators working for ICEL2 were seasoned professionals who were following the prescriptions if LA and the ratio translationis .
I have come to understand that a more valid targets for justifiable resentment would be the obvious architect of the sacred vernacular theory who through LA foisted an unproven control tactic upon the church, and secondly the clumsy scribes of Vox Clara who hacked up the translation that the bishops approved and presented it to the pope in April 2011 as a finished project, a fait accompli.
Surveys like the one at USC and the Tablet are grist for the mill, but basically unscientific and a grand waste of time and effort.
[You seem unhappy. Just use Latin and your outlook will improve.]
I confess…we have a fun CD of Vintage Children’s Favorites (tunes from the 30s & 40s) & it includes The Laughing Policeman…we (children & adults alike) all get a kick out of that song! It certainly beats much of what passes as music on the radio today!
It’s a dumb survey. The reality is people are praying it very well and appear satisfied.
frjim4321 “subliminally” lol. A conspiracy theory. Nice way to condescend.
We have that Children’s Vintage Favorites cd as well. Great cd! Love the Phil Harris.
frjim4321, would you mind expanding on the “likely damage” caused by the new Missal?
I could understand some initial resentment if the new translation were perceived to have been imposed somehow, but damage? How could a more accurate translation that is closer to the original cause damage?
@frjim4321: I have come to understand that a more valid targets for justifiable resentment would be the obvious architect of the sacred vernacular theory who through LA foisted an unproven control tactic upon the church…
And this is the (to an extent) intractable problem, isn’t it?
For there are those of us, like me, who consider the translation guidelines enshrined in Comme le prevoit – the guidelines behind the previous 1973 translation and the rejected 1998 one – misguided, dated, and generally terrible. I think that translations of pretty much any text that rely heavily on dynamic equivalence are not very good and often quite dangerous; you obviously have little love for the more formal equivalent translations that Liturgiam authenticam calls for.
So, what is to be done? How can these opposing camps be reconciled? Is it possible to square the circle? For this is precious little to do with “control” (another one of those progressive shibboleths) – it is fundamentally an argument about the best way to translate. My contention would be that we tried it one way for 40 years, and the results are there for those who have eyes to see; perhaps it’s time to try another way?
frjim4321, would you mind expanding on the “likely damage” caused by the new Missal?
It’s just my gut feeling but I predict that the exodus will accelerate.
[If there is an exodus, it won’t happen because of the translation. It’ll happen because they aren’t Catholic anymore. And that won’t have happened because if this translation either.]
It’s just my gut feeling but I predict that the exodus will accelerate.
You say that like it’s a bad thing. The wheat and the chaff have to be separated at some point.
And, Benedetta, if subliminal communication is such a crock, why does Madison Avenue spend billions a year on it?
Hoo boy.
Equating the Sacred Liturgy with Madison Avenue . . . what next? (don’t answer that question).
The difference, frjim, is that the liturgy is not blather for the purpose of puffing laundry soap or pharmaceuticals.
It is God’s Word. But perhaps you disagree.
AAM: Last time I checked I did not find anything in the scriptures promoting “sacred vernacular,” if anything, particularly as with the Pauline epistles, the scriptures were written in literary forms with which their intended audiences were quite familiar.
This has nothing to do with equating liturgy with modern advertizing, it is pointing up the power of subliminal language. I believe the CARA survey found that around 70% of people did not even know a change had taken place, thus most of the communication is being done on a subliminal basis. [?!? Maybe they didn’t know there was a change because they a) never go to church or b) due to their short attention spans and the complete absence if transcendent worship they simply pay no attention.]
Benedetta stated that my observation regarding subliminal language was in some way condescending (and I missed the logic there), but in reality the smells and bells of liturgy are all about subliminal communication.
I don’t recall where I read the observation that although it is not the role of liturgy to teach, it does in fact teach, all the time. Either for the good or for the bad.
frjim4321:
unless you think that the new translation is incorrect or teaches error, I do not see how you can simultaneously believe that “the exodus will accelerate” and that “most of the communication is being done on a subliminal basis”.
If the teaching that occurs during the liturgy is subliminal, then why would people leave the Church at a greater rate than they do now?
jesusthroughmary :
I think an accelerated exodus is a bad thing. Yes, the wheat and chaff will be separated, but is it wrong to hope for more wheat and less chaff?
I’m sure the exodus at his parish will continue to accelerate as people continue to realize liberal Christianity is a joke that’s not worth getting up on Sunday morning for. I wonder how Fr Jim would explain the fact that the Episcopal “church” has everything he and his ilk desire yet have an average Sunday attendance of less than 50 people if they’re lucky?
[?!? Maybe they didn’t know there was a change because they a) never go to church or b) due to their short attention spans and the complete absence if transcendent worship they simply pay no attention.]
I would admit that both observations are possible and would have to be considered while evaluating the data.
Michael J, yes I agree that the “smaller and purer” movement is very dangerous.
CMD, sorry to disappoint the there is growth here and at the last Finance Council meeting we scratching our heads trying to account for a $30K increase in collections for Q1.
And what makes you think this is a liberal parish? We eschew exaggerations at either end of the spectrum.
I wonder how Fr Jim would explain the fact that the Episcopal “church” has everything he and his ilk desire yet have an average Sunday attendance of less than 50 people if they’re lucky? – CMD
Maybe the Episcopalian church is going for “smaller and purer,” which would attract a few people in these parts.
It’s both depressing and encouraging that the Tablet has stooped to changing the survey text until they get the results they want. Depressing, because we see that they don’t even believe what they claim to care so passionately about, that is, the “voice of the people.” The people, apparently, are only useful insofar as they provide a prop for their left-wing ideology. It’s encouraging, though, because it suggests that people really do like the new, more reverent and poetic translation. It turns out, apparently, that people rather would have poetry and beauty, rather than a meeting of the campus Young Socialists Club.
I just noticed this question: “Some of the florid language is obsequious.” It’s what, now? I had to look that one up… Why won’t they dumb down their survey enough for stupid people like me? Help, I’m being oppressed!
Patrick, I agree, “obsequious” is not a common word that most people understand, however it does express the grovelling tone of a great many of the prayers.
Language does not have to be “dumbed down” to be beautiful, however, as we saw in the finely polished, elevated, beautiful yet clear language of the 1998 product.
Rare words, when appropriate, can be wonderful if starting; I’ve always been a great fan of “the refulgence of his glory,” what a great word, it just cries out for everyone to go home and run to their dictionaries.
@frjim
. I believe the CARA survey found that around 70% of people did not even know a change had taken place, thus most of the communication is being done on a subliminal basis.
That’s incorrect, the CARA survey you cite was taken some time before the new changes and asked if they knew of the new changes that were coming.
That’s incorrect, the CARA survey you cite was taken some time before the new changes and asked if they knew of the new changes that were coming. SC
Thanks, S.C., I had heard that the CARA survey was from a time before the imposition of the text so I could not figure out why it was getting so much air play.
I think the Association of American Priests is considering commissioning CARA to do a post-implementation survey on the VC2010 but I think it’s premature. I have not yet attended a meeting, but I probably will in the next several months. My suggestion would be that any survey should be longitudinal in nature and take into account attrition rates. I think it would be very expensive, and I don’t think the Association has much of a budget at this point.
Fr Jim – If your parish is doing so well why do you complain so much?
frjim4321 says:
Benedetta stated that my observation regarding subliminal language was in some way condescending (and I missed the logic there), but in reality the smells and bells of liturgy are all about subliminal communication.
I don’t think so. We are conscious of incense, bells, etc., but by definition we are not aware of subliminal stimuli.
I do agree that it is a major tool in advertising.
What’s interesting is that now that the new translation is used and the language more edifying, it contrasts all the more with so much junky music still on offer at ordinary form Masses. With the new translation, more and more people are going to be asking for chant at the ordinary form. I have evidence that it is already happening and changes being made. Those parishes that still insist on the same old same old of the high flying 7os days are going to see people leaving to find richer and more complete liturgy elsewhere.
I agree with Fr. Z though. Just use Latin. All will be well and even better.
Time after time, we have read the differences, courtesy of Father Z. They are often startlingly beautiful, clear and reverent. People will either get it or they won’t. But to walk away because of this is simply ludicrous, disingenuous and shows that their faith balances on the head of a pin, no more.
On a lighter note, I think ” obsequious” is a beautiful word ( ask Shakespeare) while “refulgence” sounds like “regurgitate” . Nothing personal, its just interesting how language touches us each differently, which is what this is all supposed to be about.
“But to walk away because of this is simply ludicrous, disingenuous and shows that their faith balances on the head of a pin, no more.”
Thank you. This is my point with my wheat and chaff comment above.
frjim,
Speaking as a former Episcopalian, you couldn’t be more wrong.
“Smaller and purer” is neither their intention nor their actual accomplishment (if you can call it that). They were originally a political solution to an intractable political problem, they have remained extremely political (theology by majority vote!), and as a result they have adopted every trendy left wing political cause out there, while at the same time relaxing every religious discipline you can think of. Since an Episcopalian can believe in anything, a lot of them believe they’ll sleep in on Sunday mornings. The rest of us shook the dust of the place from our sandals.
You should study that denomination carefully, because it has instituted every single thing you seem to want, and it is dying. Not only is ASA per parish below 50 and falling, the average age of the parishioners is already in the high 50s and climbing.
Read ’em and weep: ASA by Province and Diocese, 2000-2010 .