A prediction

Prediction:

With the election of President Elect Obama, I think we will now see a progressivist spill over in the Catholic sphere.  The progressivists will be emboldened now.  

They will, with their characteristic clarity of thought, connect the political shift and mandate given to the Dem ticket to a democratization of the Church.

So, watch as calls for the ordination of women increase, because after all the Church is an equal opportunity employer.  There will return a push for lay preaching, because, as they will reason, the Dems were elected.  They will with great resentment toward outside influence say that church leadership should be elected. 

At the same time, remember that these calls will come from people who don’t have any real influence.  Also, the demographics of the men who are entering seminary has shifted enormously.  The future leadership of the Church is decidedly faithful to the regula fidei.

So… more than ever you must do your best to support seminarians and your priests and bishops who are doing their good work.  I mean support them in concrete ways.  Help financially and write them notes of encouragement.  When you see they are doing something good, thank them.  

BTW… here is a screenshot of the young people celebrating the outcoming of the election.

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127 Responses to A prediction

  1. chironomo says:

    I tried to make this connection many months ago and was roundly called a “marxist” by several of the commentators here for drawing an analogy between the political direction of the world and movements in the church. There is a definite connection, and now, like the conservative movement in politics, religious conservatives will have to “defend” their positions which are now “out of the mainstream”.

  2. I actually think we are going to see a breech in the Church in North America, as the lines are more clearly drawn between the sheep and the goats.

    I also think Bishops are going to become even more vocal about Life issues, while holding so-called “Catholic” politicians accountable…we may even witness the first of what may be several public excommunications of politicians. Now is the time for boldness. Mushi-headedness in the Catholic pews, brought about by decades of mushi-headedness in the pulpits, brought about this terrible defeat for the pro-life cause.

    Lord have mercy…

    Fr. Deacon Daniel

  3. I also think it is interesting that a man pastored and mentored by Liberation theologians is now the leader of most of North America. It appears the tired garbage from South America is finding its way up north!

  4. Supertradmom says:

    The divisions in our Church were seen yesterday at Mass, when some liberal Catholics were actually telling those who attended to not pay attention to the Right to Life pamphlets being passed out, which were extremely well-done on voting records of all candidates, rational, and clear. Those who were for Obama were talking to people outside Mass about how the Bishops’ letter steered away from one issue voting.

    Some Mass attenders listened, knowing that the speaker was from the Diocesan Office, where the majority of lay people supported Obama. I know this from talking to the pro-choice Catholics, who do not realize that one issue is enough.

    These divisions have caused problems in Catholic families and in parishes. I was fortunate to find two pro-life supporters in the ministry where I work. It is all very sad….I pray everyday for our seminarians, who will have to undo fifty years of liberal Catholicism in this area.

  5. Ken says:

    I agree with Fr. Deacon (?). More bishops have become more courageous in defending the faith. The laity will follow as well. From this wilderness we will emerge victorious in the end. I’m not sure whether we’re closer to O’Brien’s “Father Elijah” and Benson’s “Lord of the World” scenario, but the rhetoric seems to be there.

  6. Chris says:

    Don’t forget the worst of all — more calls for “Catholic” hospitals to provide contraception and abortion and for Catholic adoption agencies to give children to homosexuals.

    So, basically, exactly what happened after Vatican II revived.

  7. Howard says:

    It would not surprise me to see the government attempt to push this spillover, perhaps with Canadian-style “hate speech” laws and perhaps with threats against the All-Holy Tax Exempt Status.

    Eventually, though not very soon, I could see the True Church forced back underground, with only “patriotic churches” allowed to operate openly. That’s the way it is in at least some parts of China (some of the “underground churches” seem to be remarkably visible, depending on local enforcement) and what happened in England with the establishment of the Anglican church.

  8. David Andrew says:

    I find it ironic that today is “Guy Fawkes Day” in the UK.

  9. Fr. Marie-Paul says:

    I remind these “democratic ruling” aficionados that Vatican II already gave us a Constitution, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium. Let them go read that Constitution. It talks about how the Church is governed. They never like to see what is written there, however. But they never have an answer as to why they don’t like what was really taught at Vatican II?

  10. TJB says:

    It is in the worst of times that real men and women step up to the plate, and I am hoping that this grave scenario will bring out America’s most courageous. The horrific state of the Church in the 60′s has bred a new generation of Catholics more determined than ever to resurrect Tradition. Maybe the US is going through a “60′s” but it may just breed a generation of Americans who are committed to the original American Dream.

  11. Dr. Eric says:

    Ken,

    Fr. Deacon Daniel is an Eastern Catholic Deacon (who I am acquainted with) and all clergy (as well as some holy brothers) are referred to as Father. Deacons are referred to as Father Deacon to distinguish them from priests.

  12. Howard says:

    David Andrew,

    When I first heard about Guy Fawkes Day, I had to have my English friend explain it carefully several times. I wasn’t sure whether what was being celebrated was the failure of an attempt to blow up the Parliament, or the fact that someone had actually tried it. If the same events had happened in the US, I think the latter might have been the case!

  13. jarhead462 says:

    I have long predicted a split along these lines in the Church in the U.S. I think that the liberal elements will eventually break away from Rome.
    We have to pray for our Nation and our Church, push the “Marshall Plan” forward for the Church, and for the Nation, start planning for the 2010 midterms, and by 2012 make sure the President-elect is a single term guy.

    Semper Fi!

  14. Dr. Eric says:

    Addendum: Bishops are referred to as “Your Grace” or “Master.” ["Master"? Where? In some places, they are often addressed as Excellency and also Monsignor. But this is a rabbit hole: entirely off topic.]

  15. Reminder: I don’t permit anonymous comments on this blog. You must use some sort of nom de plume or handle.

  16. Pater, OSB says:

    Just a note on what Fr. Z actually suggested… and isn’t being discussed here.

    Please, please, please support your seminarians, deacons, priests and bishops with your prayers especially. But also with those words of encouragement – and letters and care-packages to the men in seminary. No matter how ‘good’ or ‘bad’ the seminary these guys feel down sometimes (e.g. midterms or finals week), so help to cheer them up a bit. And when you do so, please try to be edifying and positive – help to build them up appropriately so that they can in turn raise the bar when they are ordained (God-willing).

    Finally, regarding many liturgical elements, some parishes and priests can’t afford beautiful things, so if you know of a priest who wants to do liturgy well, but doesn’t have the best to work with – help him out, or make a designated gift to his parish… or see what they need an donate it.

    Just a few ideas.

    I greatly appreciate this blog and the good zeal of those who read and post.

  17. Dr. Eric says:

    Fr. Z,

    I was just clarifying my earlier post for Ken. Eastern Catholic Bishops are referred to in Ukrainian as “Vladika,” in Greek “Despota,” and Arabic as “Sayidna” which is translated as “Master.” The Deacon pronounces “Master, give the blessing!” to the bishop during the Divine Liturgy.

    I apologize for taking the discussion down a rabbit hole. I just wanted to clarify.

  18. Seminarian says:

    I personally think that this is not the Apocalypse people are faith are making it out to be. Yes, President-elect Obama has a lot of very worrying aspects that Catholics rightly should be wary of.

    But it\’s not like Diocletian was elected. If anything, now is the time that Catholics need to stand up and be counted, and publicly proclaim the Truth from the rooftops.

  19. Jim Dorchak says:

    Ok with the spill over in mind.

    Where is the best Catholic, and I mean “wholly Catholic” country to raise a family? My Wife says Malta.

    Jim Dorchak

  20. JM says:

    “Addendum: Bishops are referred to as “Your Grace” or “Master.” [“Master”? Where? In some places, they are often addressed as Excellency and also Monsignor. But this is a rabbit hole: entirely off topic.]”

    Eastern bishops are sometimes referred to as “Master.” In the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, the deacon will say “Master, give the blessing.” when a bishop is celebrating. Sometimes it is also said to a priest. In their latest translation of the Divine Liturgy, the Ruthenian Catholic Church in the US is using either, “Reverend Father” or “Reverend Bishop.”

  21. Jon says:

    Seminarian,

    “But it’s not like Diocletian was elected.”

    Oh, really?

    At the moment the Glenn Beck program is playing behind me as I write. Glenn just made the comment that “no matter what you think of Obama’s election [and Glenn's virulently opposed], it’s a great thing that in this country where forty years ago we were spraying down African-American children with hoses – one has now been elected as president. What a wonderful thing to tell our children.”

    Sorry, Glenn. This is like calling up Hitler on January 31st, 1933, and getting schmoozy over being a stand-up candidate. After all, ol’ Adolf did have a way with words, and liked puppies and little (well, German) children. It’s also like congratulating Lucifer on a well fought fight the morning after St. Michael tossed him into hell.

    It makes me sick. http://www.durarealidad.com/

  22. Dan H says:

    I had time to think about what this would mean and maybe just maybe this is what we need to wake us up and truly become the Church Militant. Let us not stick out heads in the sand because that was not our Lords way. I re-read Bishop Finns message to Catholics and it inspired me more than I knew. I voted for McCain and I am proud of my vote. We as a church must stand up to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and say with conviction we are not going into that good night. Our priests and bishops must be strong, we must pray for them and pray for even more holy priests. I have used the term this is 4 years of Lent and as we all know Easter is always after Lent. This purging fire will strengthen us in prayer and let us hope that the Church Militant under the protect of Our Lady of Victory will see us through these times.

  23. Fr. BJ says:

    Send your seminarians a Thanksgiving or Christmas care package (doesn’t have to be money, although they need that also — just send them something nice, like cookies, or pens/paper, etc.)! Some of them are in seminary without much support from either family or friends, some of them attend seminaries where their lives are made difficult. It is always nice to get mail (unless it is a bill) and kind gestures like this, which are so simple, can bring a lot of encouragement.

    Our Serra club sent me care packages from time to time when I was in seminary and it was always a joy to receive them. Occasionally they arrived at times in my vocational discernment when I was down in the dumps or under a lot of stress.

  24. Steve K. says:

    This is how they will come after us: issues that are directly matters of religious conscience will be declared ‘human rights issues’ and subject to the courts. This will be the cover given to the State to interfere directly in the Church and remake it in accord with its own wishes. The Church will be sued for violating human rights by not ordaining women, not marrying gays, and so forth.

    Those who prepared the ground in the Church for Obama with arguments and persuasions are also preparing the ground for a counterfeit Church, a place for people who will not keep the faith to go and delude themselves that they are still faithful to God and to convince themselves they are the true Church. Then when the actual Church is persecuted, the authorities can claim that they are not persecuting the Catholic Church, but only an “extremist fringe.” Whoever brought up the “Patriotic Church” of China was very astute.

    The people who are counting on this in the American Church today are legion – I think this will all move very quickly now. And we faithful Catholics will find we have very few friends in the society at large. See you all in the catacombs!

  25. David Andrew says:

    It’s not going to be easy, and I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been depressed and sleepless all night, but I’ve also visited my home altar several times and prayed a simple Our Father/Hail Mary/Glory Be. Whatever else we do, we must continue praying, and yes we need to continue encouraging the young men in our parishes who have stepped forward to become seminarians and hopefully, priests.

    It was just recently announced that the St. Paul Seminary, one which has become progressively more conservative over the years, has increased its enrollment by some truly amazing number (I won’t attempt to quote a figure, because I can’t remember it exactly).

    St. Meinrad School of Theology, attached to the Archabbey to which I’m bound as an oblate, just announced an enrollment of 40 seminarians, also a record increase for them.

    Perhaps we should ignore the snapping and snarling of the Enemy, throw ample amounts of holy water and holy prayers at him, and join ranks with St. Michael!

    A new day dawns, change is promised, but in the long run I think the folks who think they’re first will find themselves horribly last in God’s reckoning.

  26. Howard says:

    Now that Obama has won, a woman who really wants an abortion will be able to do so legally — but that’s the way it was before the election and how it would have been even if McCain had won. The only real things that will change will be that more of our taxes will go to support abortion, we as a nation have taken a more pro-abortion stance (increasing our collective guilt for these crimes), and the “bully pulpit” will be used against the pro-life cause. Also, there will almost certainly be a revived attempt to use RICO against pro-life groups. These are all bad, but not so bad that we should despair.

    Ultimately, the problem is not just that one million unborn children die each year. That is a physical evil, and could have been caused by a non-moral problem like an epidemic or a famine. The real problem is that there are a million DECISIONS each year to kill an unborn child. Those are moral evils, sins, spiritual problems, and even if a mother could not have an abortion, it would be a tragic sin if she merely really wanted one. Since we seem to be making no progress going against the effect, we need to redouble our efforts by going after the cause, which (sorry, pro-Obama Catholics) is not economic, but rather spiritual.

  27. Jim says:

    It is not 100% bleak out there. Proposition 8 (ending the “right” to gay marriage) is narrowly winning in California, about 52% for and 48% against. But Proposition 4 (requiring parental notification of abortions by teenagers) is losing.

    The battle is not over. The persecution is beginning and the sheeps will be separated from the goats. I expect a schism within the Church in the US.

  28. Hennepin says:

    What really scares me about this election is the number of seats the dems have won in congress and the all to real probability of FOCA becoming law.

  29. Pater, OSB says:

    David Andrew,
    Well said!

  30. mysticalrose says:

    Howard: Right on! For all the people who are skeptical about the role of “big government” we are rather quickly presuming that the plague of abortion is primarily a governmental problem. The real problem: the minds and hearts of women who seek abortions. If these 1.3 billion mothers in America did not desire in their hearts and assent with their minds to kill their own children, no liberal legal ruling would even matter! The prolife cause may have failed in terms of legislation, but there is an awful lot to do on the personal level . . . on the level of conversion. And if we neglect this work in despair over the election than we have cast our lot with the culture of death.

  31. Gerry Scheid says:

    I guess if it was ‘relativism’ that such ‘catholics’ allowed them to vote for such a pro choice candidate. And I guess they would perceive they won so why not try to get the Church to also change? If they were at Mass to listen to their pastor’s/ bishop’s claim to stay away from any pro choice candidate I guess they tuned out and decided to do what they wanted to do regardless?

    After Mass on Sunday our ‘traditional’ pastor gave an impassioned sermon about voting and after I perceived maybe half applauded what he had just said.

    Do we need any more proof that Satin and all his evil spirits are happily roaming about the world.

    Gerry

  32. Thomas says:

    I think Father’s suggestion to make concrete our support for seminarians is an excellent one. I will spread that one around my circles.

    I also think we need to thank the bishops who made such faithful, powerful, and courageous public stands prior to the elections. They are a blessing to the Church, and a bulwark to faithful Catholics. Write them and thank them.

    I fear that every dire prediction made in the above posts will come to pass to some extent. The Church has already in the last decade been pushed further out of the public square and has been forced by the courts and government to either accept the legislated immoralities of birth control, abortion, and same-sex “marriage” and adoption, or to accept legal penalties. It will get worse, and Catholics in this country will soon face the type of “human right” commissions that now threaten Catholics in Canada. It is, I fear, the start of a new era of persecution for Holy Mother Church.

    That said: Be not afraid. Our Lord told us it would happen, and so has His mother in many of her apparitions. But He also told us that His Church would prevail. Four years of Lent. I like that image. So let us have Lent. Let’s fast, pray and give alms. Let’s wear our proverbial hair shirts under our clothes and offer it all up with a smile, never letting the world know what we are enduring. Speak up and defend our Church, of course. But don’t whine.

    God bless America. She needs Him more than ever.

  33. Ohio Annie says:

    David Andrew, I, too, am a St. Meinrad oblate. I am not entirely certain of the formation offered at the seminary there. I have had my doubts, as they were one of the first seminaries to ditch Latin and the huge Joan Chittister section in the bookstore is “of concern” to put it mildly. Also, many of the monks are liberal Democrats, pro-abortion, etc. I notice the course catalog says that Latin is “still used in some ceremonies of the Church.” No mention of it being the normative language of the Latin rite.

    I pray for our seminarians and I support one in Medellin, Colombia through the Christian Foundation for Children and Aging. Ask them and they will assign you a seminarian. You pay for their tuition and can write letters to them. It is very educational.

  34. georgeaquinas says:

    Don’t forget, what can be voted in can be voted out. But, I don’t agree with Fr. Z’s comment that “that these calls will come from people who don’t have any real influence.” I think that these people still have immense influence. They can still create lots of damage before the next generation takes their place. For example, the recent revelation that Catholic Charities gave money to ACORN, the tripe that is published by the Council of Bishops, the refusal to implement new translations, the willful ignoring of Vatican directives and wishes, etc. There is still a lot of damage that can be done. How much of the American Church’s infrastructure is ran by liberal lay Catholic or just plain liberals? Go to your local Catholic school and count the number of Obama bumper stickers in the parking lot. But, don’t despair; the Church is eternal and will alwasy stand. It is important to pray, teach your children the Faith and point out the nakedness of the emperors.

  35. Angelo says:

    I did’t intend to post anonymously. Sorry.

    I only wanted to say that we should be prepared to support, shelter and defend our priests with our very lives if it comes to that, and that is a very real possibility since Communists go for them first.

    Since you aren’t going to save anybody’s life from armed stormtroopers with a spoon. I was suggesting you avail yourselves of your Second Amendment rights and be quick about it before the window of opportuity closes.

  36. Ioannes Andreades says:

    Now that the election is over, would the IRS mind if the the bishops disclose who we should have voted for if we follow church teaching? Maybe it would help for next time around.

  37. Mary Jane says:

    I’m already seeing calls for all the non-Obama Catholics to “work for reconciliation” and apologize for hurting people’s feelings. We can see that there are deep divisions in the Church in the US and they are fundamental. Giving up all principles to “get along together” won’t solve this crisis.

    What this election proved is that the vast majority of American Catholics are absolutely no different in their opinions and/or behaviors than everyone else. And I remember how distinctive Catholics once were in this country. My family is Protestant, so it was something I admired from the outside.

    Many bishops made progress in terms of words. We’ll see what happens at the upcoming USCCB meeting. What we’ll also need to see as FOCA, etc. comes up is much more than words. And on the ground level, endless “recatechizing” of the uncatechized Catholic in the pew whose religion is a “mixture of sentiment, nostalgia, and generic goodwill” (Arch. Chaput).

  38. EDG says:

    I believe the bishops are having a meeting some time this month to decide how to handle the issue of pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians. Too little, too late; had one of those great theologians, Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden, been excommunicated, we’d probably be looking at a different political landscape today. But the meeting was purposely scheduled for after the elections so that whatever they decided would have no effect.

    I think we have to admit that there are some Catholic bishops who are just fine with abortion, euthanasia, massive state control, and all the other things that are part of the package. I agree that the left will start with some “can’t we all just get along” pleas.

    But it’s not possible to “get along” with evil, and the very existence of a group of Catholics that refuses to adapt is a reproach to those who do adapt. Some issue will arise – I would suspect it will be gay “marriage” – where the state sees an opportunity for removing or marginalizing its enemy, the Church. These bishops will go along with the state immediately, just as they did under Henry VIII, and then they will turn on the faithful bishops and clergy and even laity. It’s happened before. (Maybe the only good thing you can say about the post-Vatican II liturgy is that many of our beautiful buildings, liturgical practices, etc. have already been destroyed, so the state won’t have the ability to wreak quite as much destruction as Henry VIII and his successors did.)

  39. Fr. Vidrine says:

    While you are correct in general, Fr. Z, that won’t happen here in Louisiana. Our people delivered a resounding NO to the change that Obama offers. Our faithful Catholic people will likewise say no to the liberal and socialist errors forced upon the Faith. They want the truth in its purity and organically developed form. While Catholics in the Northeast gleefully supported Obama, Catholics here truly mourn today. Kyrie, eleison!

  40. Hieromonk Gregory says:

    Today I was having a Kubler Ross experience until I celebrated the Liturgy and then reflected on the words of St. Paul: Here we have no lasting city but await the one that is to come. And the words of the Savior: “In the world we will have conflict and trial; but lo, fear not, for I have overcome the world! Let’s arise now and begin again the journey!

  41. booklover says:

    He who pays the piper calls the tune.

    When will even one bishop have the guts to refuse all Federal funding of Catholic institutions in his diocese?

  42. Ken says:

    One good that could come out of the election is an opportunity to show (not just talk about) how to discipline a pro-abortion Catholic. Denying the new vice president (it pains me to write that) Communion everywhere he goes (are you listening, bishops?) would serve as an excellent teaching model.

  43. ave maria says:

    “When will even one bishop have the guts to refuse all Federal funding of Catholic institutions in his diocese?”

    WE may just find out in the coming year or years. When Catholic hospitals are forced to perform abortions, will they compromise, do it, or will they sell off or shut down? I think Archbishop Chaput said he would close the CAtholic hospitals befroe they would agree to the killing of the unborn. I hope if push comes to shove, he will do it. The government of the culture of death can run their own hospitals.

    I have concerns over the so-called ‘freedom of choice’ act atht obama has promised to sign. That will take away my freedom as a medical person to opt out of the intrinsic evils. I need to find a ‘safe’ way to practice my profession which was always meant to be healing and not death dealing.

    As to the measure in California…when gay ‘marriage’ goes nationwide, it will not mean a thing. What the voters want does not mean a thing when ONE judge even can overturn it.

    But in spite of hte bleak landscape–one holy person can do so much good! It is always and everywhere to be faithful and to seek holiness in our lives, to pray and live an intensely sacramental life. Then no matter what happens we can hope to keep our eyes on the Lord. Our Lady will help us.

  44. Brett M. says:

    I just found this web-site (glad I did). The picture in this article is scary and quite alarming. This election has woken up my faith and my interest in the political process.

  45. RBrown says:

    I also think it is interesting that a man pastored and mentored by Liberation theologians is now the leader of most of North America. It appears the tired garbage from South America is finding its way up north!
    Comment by Father Deacon Daniel

    It didn’t come from S America–it is of Northern European origin. Three of the kingpins of Liberation Theology are Jon Sobrino, Leonardo Boff, and Gustavo Gutierrez. Sobrino was a Spaniard who studied theology in Frankfurt, Boff a Brazilian who studied theology in Munish, and Gutierrez a Peruvian who studied in Leuven.

    Hegel provides the theoretical basis for Liberation Theology.

  46. Marnie says:

    Spain has had its own Obama for six years now. Where has this maniac of a president/prime minister led us? Homosexual marriages and adoptions, very soon we will have on demand abortions for any woman that feels she is “carrying a mistake” (awful even to write it), fines and even medical licenses taken away from doctors that will not perform on demand killing of babies or adults, manipulation of history to produce his endless reelection.
    And what I have witnessed in the Spanish Catholic Church is utter silence. Very few will come out and call a spade a spade. We are quickly labeled fascist and here in Spain is a term used to discredit the opposing discourse.
    So yes, give those who will have to lead the flock encouragement in any way necessary. Stand behind them when they stand up for what makes us Catholic. And pray… above all else pray. This ex-pat will keep all of you my prayers.

  47. booklover says:

    It’s not just a question of being forced to perform abortions. The bishops of this country willfully participate in the redistribution of wealth, condemned explicity by the Church as an intrinsic evil, when they accept funds extorted from taxpayers to run, not only their hospitals, but schools, charitable organizations, etc. It’s time to opt out.

  48. It is truly a dark day for America and the world. It took almost one thousand years from the founding of Rome to the collapse of the Roman Empire. It only took 232 years for these United States to begin to fall. I firmly believe that president-elect Obama is an evil man and will be a horrible dictator and perhaps pave the way for the Anti-Christ or is in fact he. The masses sure seem to worship him. Dark days are ahead. Pray for America and our Holy Roman Catholic Church.

    Saint Michael The Archangel – Defend us in our battle!

  49. Mark S. says:

    Howard: Guy Fawkes Day (5 November, aka “Bonfire Night”) is a commemoration of the defeat of the attempt to destroy the British parliament. It is traditional to have bonfires with fireworks in the evening, at which an effigy is burned on the bonfire. Although this effigy is usually of Guy Fawkes, a village in southern England maintains a tradition of burning an effigy of the Pope. This day was/is anti-Catholic in origin – although most UK Catholics have forgotten this – and for several centuries the Anglican Book of Common Prayer contained a special service of thanksgiving for the defeat of this “Popish plot”. Hope this information is useful.

  50. tradone says:

    Fr Z,
    Please, what is the origin of this photo? My sources are always questioned. Thanks,
    tradone

  51. Tradone,
    I see the Fox News logo in the lower left corner. http://www.foxnews.com

  52. ED says:

    I’ve haven’t heard these accusations against Catholic Charities before. Was is just one time they gave money to ACORN or is this a pattern? Do you recommend not donating to them in the future?

    Thanks,
    ED

  53. pelerin says:

    Mark S. – Lewes is actually the county town of East Sussex and hardly a village! The population is 16,222. Living a few miles away the skies are already lit up with fireworks. It looks like being a noisy night!

  54. Akira Yamadori says:

    “It is truly a dark day for America and the world. It took almost one thousand years from the founding of Rome to the collapse of the Roman Empire. It only took 232 years for these United States to begin to fall. I firmly believe that president-elect Obama is an evil man and will be a horrible dictator and perhaps pave the way for the Anti-Christ or is in fact he. The masses sure seem to worship him. Dark days are ahead. Pray for America and our Holy Roman Catholic Church.

    I copied this from Tridentine Catholic above.

    While I do believe that the USA is in the process of slow collapse both as a world military and economic power ( no great State in world History, or any Empire, lasted very long….especially those that were not monarchies did not last long), I do not believe that Barack obama is an evil man, and that he will unleash such on the USA.
    I do believe that Sarah Palin and her religious cohorts however, ARE evil, and will lead many cCatholic souls astray because some think she and her religious views are perfectly compadible with Catholicism.
    I have seen these Pentecostalists on TV. They are fanatics. They are the USA equivalent of the Taliban.
    While the USA is in a cycle of decline which is probably irreversible, the term of McCain/Palin would have accelerated the decline so much more. Think of the extra military ventures and outright wars the USA would have begun or participated in under McCain, in a warped agenda to impose our version of morality on the world. To say nothing of the radically disturbed religious views that Palin and probably more of her co-religionists would have brought into the USA government. Thank God they have been defeated.
    I would not have wanted ridgid Pentecostalist/Protestant Fundamentalist views shoved down by throat, or having influence in the secular USA government.
    Our country was founded “under God”, but is not a theocracy.
    Palin and company would have done their best to make our government as much a theoracy as possible…much in the style of Iran. Don’t doubt that for a second.

  55. John N in St Paul says:

    A few thoughts.
    First, I believe that we need to pray for president elect Obama, and all our elected leaders.
    A good many of them do have some level of openness to the leading of the Holy Spirit, we need to plead for them that this will be utilized. We need to pray that God would have mercy on our country. We need to pray for our bishops and clergy that they will have the will to say what will need to be said in the coming days and years, and that we all have courage to remain faithful.
    Second, is there a way to encourage our Bishops to take a strong, no nonsense stand on FOCA, and particularly with any “Catholic” legislators who might consider voting for it?

  56. Alexander the Mongol says:

    “for several centuries the Anglican Book of Common Prayer contained a special service of thanksgiving for the defeat of this “Popish plot”. Hope this information is useful”

    a bit of trivia amongst other things the American Anglicans have de facto canonized by giving feast days to Martin Luther king Jr., Bp. Oscar Ramero, King Kamehameha, Teresa of Ávila, and Harriet Tubman. Bizarre, huh?

    As to what will happen in the American Church, I suspect the liberals will become more bold and the Catholic hospitals will be forced to have abortions and give out contraception. Besides that though people will not notice much in the pews since most parishes, at least here in Michigan, are staffed by liberals anyway.

    On the domestic sector I expect our own version of the Quiet Revolution on both the economic and social level, On the social sphere we will have new-left style culture endorsed by the government especially in education and instead of Quebecois nationalism we will have a mixture of minority nationalism by far-leftest Latinos and Blacks. Also expect Marxist style nationalization of the health system and large chunks of the energy sector, I think Obama’s America will at best resemble a western European welfare state, and at worst be a Venezuela. Oh yeah Obama’s government will probably make gun restriction so tight that the 2nd amendment will practically no longer exist.

    Also there will be a huge re-emergence of tin foil hat groups like Michigan Militia.

  57. tihald says:

    Whether Obama is evil or not is above our paygrade, as I believe the term goes. But he certainly holds evil viewpoints vis a vis life issues. This republic has been slowly fading since Franklin announced to the woman in Philadelphia that the Founding Fathers have given us a republic if we could keep it. What worries me is what President-elect Obama and the 111th Congress will do. Especially regards abortion and marriage. Somehow I have the awful feeling that we may be in for a period of chastisement. Pray. Pray that the bishops of the US will rally and show the backbone we’ve been wanting for so long. Pray to Our Lady of America for grace and mercy on ourselves and the republic.

  58. Lee says:

    Yesterday we went to the noon Mass at Holy Rosary, a parish here in Portland Oregon manned by Dominicans. It is a very pro-life parish, and the homeschoolers gravitate toward it. The students of Ecce Veritas- a small, classically based junior high and high school- come here every day.

    Anticipating the defeat we were about to suffer, I think, and as a away of schooling us how to handle it, Fr. Vincent sang the Mass. It is never sung. There is never a shared sign of peace. Yesterday there was. The sermon was about St. Charles Borromeo who undertook the reform of Milan against severe opposition. I wish I could remember all of it, but the money paraphrase was that no matter what happens in the election, God is still God, grace is still grace. There will be as much reason for hope tomorrow as there was yesterday.

    It was utterly, utterly glorious. It brought to mind stories of the saints of old going to their martyrdoms singing. It was an encouragement to be, no matter what, happy warriors.

    And to rely on God.

  59. GD says:

    I am an avid reader of your blog, which I think to be excellent. As a non-American I have been extremely interested in hearing the opinions and views of Americans of all persuasions concerning the recent presidential election.

    I am not sure as to the prediction you make, I think a more measured analysis can only be made in time regarding the effect of Barak Obama’s presidency. What I can say is that the last eight years – in particular, but not exclusively – have resulted in some of most corrupt and evil acts being committed in the name of spreading ‘freedom’ and fighting ‘terrorism’, much of which has involved spreading misinformation – notably, for instance, the lies on which the combat in Iraq was based. The belligerent nature of the current president’s administration, whose origin has been a wicked desire for geo-political opportunism, has been inexcusable.

    We are yet to see how Obama approaches his new role, so let us not waste time and spread angst based on speculation. Once in office, realities can often greatly affect one’s priorities and actions.

    What many of us know for sure, however, is how divisive and dangerous has been the present administration. This is certainly the overriding view we see from the outside.

    May God forgive the current administration for the evils committed in its name.

    DG, London

  60. Ohio Annie says:

    Unfortunately, for the secularists, we have gotten to the situation that the second amendment was intended to correct. The only thing we can do is pray and tell the truth about the evil we see around us. That is all that is required, if we do it rightly. God’s promises are never revoked. Souls are at stake. Pray and work to open people’s eyes to the possibilities of LIFE.

  61. Alexander the Mongol says:

    “Unfortunately, for the secularists, we have gotten to the situation that the second amendment was intended to correct.”

    Things are going to be bad, but things will have to become extremely bad for that to happen…. and frankly, although I am the paranoid type, I do not see that happening.

  62. David Andrew says:

    I’ve looked and looked at the screenshot Fr. Z posted, and I remember seeing similar scenes on the “talking head” shows this morning. All the faces for the most part young people, mostly white, probably attending a left-leaning liberal college somewhere.

    Then I looked again. Did you catch it? There in the left-hand side of the screenshot . . . a red flag with a hammer and sickle.

    Things that make you go, “hmmm.”

  63. Andraea says:

    This election of Obama is a very serious indictment of the moral wasteland of all the Catholics who voted for him despite being forewarned repeatedly by their courageous bishops and pastors. IF ONLY (I can’t empahasize this enough) they would have followed a clean conscience in support of LIFE, the outcome should be different. But then again, mediocre Catholics deserve mediocre public leaders. We deserve what we choose.

    I’m beyond sad with this election.

  64. Ken C says:

    The Catholic Campaign for Human Development has given millions to ACORN for years. They just pulled their 2008 funding.

    http://centraldaylight.blogspot.com/2008/10/acorn-finally-loses-catholic-money.html

  65. Ohio Annie says:

    Things are going to be extremely bad. Unlimited abortion. I can’t wait to see what they do with eminent domain. That will be the push-comes-to-shove for the secularists anyway.

  66. Steve K. says:

    ED -

    Catholic Charities in my diocese (Richmond, VA) procured and funded an abortion (at least one that we know of) for a minor. Them funding ACORN doesn’t seem out of character to me.

  67. CK says:

    We are yet to see how Obama approaches his new role

    We might get a hint by looking at his approaches in all of his old roles up to this point!

    How many “Catholics” will now be receiving the Eucharist in grave error after their informed action here?

  68. Chris M says:

    “I would not have wanted ridgid Pentecostalist/Protestant Fundamentalist..”

    Don’t know many Pentecostals, do ya? There ARE some pretty wacko ones, but for the most part, they’re not what you’re describing at all. Gov Palin would fall under the “sane” category, not the wacko fundamentalist category.

  69. BD says:

    GD, London,
    Would you agree that intentionally killing innocent, defenseless human beings is a fundamentally “evil act?”

    Do you agree that making laws that legalize killing innocent human beings is a fundamentally “evil act?”

    Do you agree that unborn humans are just as human as you are?

    Obama has declared himself on abortion and his public record is completely pro-abortion. If one’s moral thinking supports such fundamental evil, how does one go about building a just society? How does one build such an edifice on such a corrupt foundation?

  70. GD says:

    BD,

    Of course, I am opposed to abortion, and think it to be a grave evil. Whether an Obama presidency will actually result in abortion laws being relaxed, is something we can only judge in time.

    Yet the paradox is this: that the Republican administration should, rightly, on one hand promote and uphold the rights of the unborn – and thus the dignity of the human being – yet on the other hand wage wars that result in the bludgeoning of countless innocents, based on a disordered and anti-intellectual world outlook. The Bush administration may have appeared ‘pro-life’ at home, yet it has appeared anything but in its actions abroad.

    One might suggest that neither of the main parties is worthy of a Catholic’s vote.

  71. GD says:

    BD,

    Of course, I am opposed to abortion, and think it to be a grave evil. Whether an Obama presidency will actually result in abortion laws being relaxed, is something we can only judge in time.

    Yet the paradox is this: that the Republican administration should, rightly, on one hand promote and uphold the rights of the unborn – and thus the dignity of the human being – yet on the other hand wage wars that result in the bludgeoning of countless innocents, based on a disordered and anti-intellectual world outlook. The Bush administration may have been ‘pro-life’ at home, yet it has appeared anything but in its actions abroad. This dichotomy is abhorrent. After 8 years of Bush et al an ‘ethical foreign policy’ is a must.

    One might suggest that neither of the main parties is worthy of a Catholic’s vote.

  72. Brian Day says:

    Andraea,

    Rather than quoting your entire post, let me say that I do not disagree with you sentiment. But here are a couple of things to remember:

    …moral wasteland of all the Catholics who voted for him – remember, of those who self-identify themselves as Catholic, only 30% go to Holy Mass regularly. I don’t have the numbers, but I suspect that regular Mass attending Catholics did not vote in the majority for Obama.

    …despite being forewarned repeatedly by their courageous bishops and pastors…
    Only a third of the Bishops actually spoke out forcefully for life this election cycle. The others, like my bishop, relied only the Faithful Citizenship document. That piece of political correctness was used to justify voting for Obama.

    I hope that the USCCB meeting this week will rescind that POS document.

  73. Jordanes says:

    GD said: Yet the paradox is this: that the Republican administration should, rightly, on one hand promote and uphold the rights of the unborn – and thus the dignity of the human being – yet on the other hand wage wars that result in the bludgeoning of countless innocents, based on a disordered and anti-intellectual world outlook.

    Disordered and anti-intellectual world outlook? And earlier you said it came from “a wicked desire for geo-political opportunism.” But I rather suspect those three gaping craters in New York, D.C., and Pennsylvania seven years ago may have had a little something to do with the Bush administration’s subsequent militarism in Afghanistan and Iraq. This isn’t to excuse atrocities committed during those wars, because they cannot be justified, but let’s not rewrite history and pretend that President Bush’s responses to terrorist attacks and his administration’s grandiose and hamhanded attempt to reorder the Middle East were the result of a disordered and anti-intellectual outlook or a wicked desire for geopolitical opportunism. It really is possible for a foreign policy to be simply wrong, rather than being fiendishly, deliberately, satanically wicked, you know.

  74. Paul M says:

    Excellent point, Father. I think the progressive Catholics will be emboldened and will need to be fought at every turn. In fact, it has already started according to from Cal Catholic Daily. Doug Kmiec, who so famously gave cover to pro-abortion Catholics, has been invited to give an election post-mortem at St. John’s seminary in Camarillo (the seminary of the Archdiocese of LA). An excerpt:

    According to an announcement on the seminary’s web site, Kmiec’s lecture “will be an examination of the prominent role played by the American Catholic community in the 2008 election, from Bishops educating candidates on ensoulment to alternative ways to be pro-life to the selection of running mates.” In addition, said the announcement, Kmiec will discuss “Were Catholics too single-issue to pick wisely on the full social Gospel of the Church?”

    Please pray for our seminarians.

  75. GD,
    Perhaps before you pass judgment on the Republican Party you should read the Republican Party Platform and the Democratic Party Platform and the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution and Bill of Rights and make an informed opinion about the Republican Party’s and Democratic Party’s outlook and world view. Which party seems to hold to the beliefs of the Founding Fathers? The prevailing American view is to fight wars abroad so that we do not have to fight at home. Most Americans and people in other countries would rather fight the Muslims in their countries and prevent them from killing us here. Taking a lesson from history would do us all a great deal of good. Remember the NAZIS and WWII? Neville Chamberlain just talked and did not act and the NAZIS brought the fight to England. Churchill took the fight to them which is what Bush did with the full support of The US Congress. The Muslim terrorists and Islamists are far worse than the Nazis ever could have been. The Muslim terrorists and Islamists are just less efficient and work slower.

  76. Mike T says:

    Diocletian did not have the sophisticated mass-media brain-washing mechanisms at his
    disposal that the NWO has today. Actually executing the unbrainwashable can be much
    less effective than marginalizing them through ridicule or demonization. I do not say
    this as a call to cowardice, but as a reminder to respect the infamy of our times.

  77. Lucia says:

    pray for those of us attending Catholic high schools, will you?

    please and thank you all.

    note: most effective way to spread the news about abortion’s horrible nature? comment that taxpayers will have to pay for it under FOCA. sadly, I’m serious.

  78. Blonde Bertha says:

    God is good! God is great!! God is beauty, praise him!!!
    The Holy Spirit was truly at work with this excellent result.

    It seems like the whole world is rejoicing for a change in US leadership with the exception of a small minority from the US blogging on the web.
    Perhaps the overtly political stance taken by some bishops and priests in the US repelled many american voters, and the ploy [Ploy?] backfired? If the clergy in the UK [This didn't happen in the UK. Did you notice?] had acted in a similar fashion during an election then there would rightly have been parliamentary uproar and legal censures taken.

    I pray that Obama will work on the causes of abortion and a reduction will occour by the next US presidential election.
    London, 5th November 2008

  79. Andreas says:

    GD;

    Of course, I am opposed to abortion, and think it to be a grave evil. Whether an Obama presidency will actually result in abortion laws being relaxed, is something we can only judge in time.

    Obama’s pro-abortion stance is well known. It is unreasonable to expect a relaxation of pro-abortion laws from the Obama presidency.

    Yet the paradox is this: that the Republican administration should … wage wars that result in the bludgeoning of countless innocents.

    The number of war victims is small compared to the number of abortions, (not that that is a sufficient argument in itself) but more importantly, no one wages a war with the INTENTION of killing innocent civilians. Abortion, on the other hand, is the intentional taking of innocent human life.

    You, as many others, mistakenly equate pacifist political utopia with the commandment “you shall not kill”.

    Andreas

  80. Blonde Bertha says:

    ”no one wages a war with the INTENTION of killing innocent civilians.”

    You having a laugh? Anyone entering a war (like Iraq) goes into it in the full knowledge of the likely consequences. Even if it isn’t you’re intention, awareness of the likely consequences are still morally reprehensible.

  81. Lucia says:

    Blonde Bertha–in the US we have a truly beautiful thing called freedom of speech, in which the government can’t do a thing if a man in holy orders decides to endorse one candidate or the other, or make any political statement he feels like.

    I’m sure many UK citizens are just as outspoken.

    The separation of church and state means state has to stay out of the church. It doesn’t mean vice versa. :-)

  82. tihald says:

    Actually religious are not allowed to endorse a candidate from the pulpit. The religious body would risk it’s tax exempt status from the IRS. They are allowed to discuss issues, but not candidates. Although those rules seem to be selectively applied.

  83. SM says:

    DG or GD, LONDON (since you have it both ways):

    First, some background: In recent history, I have lived in your country, and I have served in the military of the USA. Your country’s law are very anti-Catholic & Tony Blair only made this worse. I am shocked he now processes to be a Catholic after supporting gay marriage and requiring Catholic charities to place innocent children with gay “couples”.

    Second, our president elect has already stated he will do away w/ the ban on partial birth abortion, allow federal funding of abortions, and supports infanticide. Catholic Doctrine is clear: When it matters, abortion is the first issue when voting as it is the taking of an innocent life. In this election, abortion does matter. You may think the “wars” matter, but not to the extent that abortion matters, and you cannot just end wars w/o the lose of innocent life. (Vietnam should ring a bell?)

    Third, this was not an election between Obama and Bush (so your statements are based upon the wrong facts). It was an election between a known abortion advocate who wants to increase abortions and called babies a “mistake”, and a known supporter of life. There could not have been a more clear distinction.

    Fourth, and the real reason I am writing, is your comments on the US military are disgusting and out of bounds. The US military personnel do not bludgeon countless innocent people. Not only is this statement so far out of bounds, it shows your complete ignorance of the facts of how the USA selects its targets. Unlike the 9/11 attackers, the US military follows the Geneva Conventions, and these international agreement define what a lawful target is. Each time the US military drops a bomb, it is reviewed to verify the target is lawful, assessed for the likelihood of collateral damage, and then adjust the munition to be used to limit the damage. Moreover, the US has the right to defend itself against the madmen who attached us on 9/11 and wish to have our country destroyed.

    I am not saying Pres. Bush is completely innocent, but your statement attacks the military personnel. And, as stated, this was not about Bush. It was about Obama and McCain.

  84. Blonde Bertha says:

    The seperation of church and state means that the church cannot be overtly political and endorse particular candidates, which is exactly was intended by some catholic clergy. [Um... I don't think that is what it means.]

  85. Blonde Bertha says:

    We also have freedom of speech in the UK (and seperation of church and state, of sorts!).

  86. Cygnus says:

    Blonde Bertha: Passing the Freedom of Choice Act will increase abortion dramatically and use MY tax dollars to do so. Didn’t read about that in the Guardian or hear about that on the British Biased Corporation, did you?

    Thanks be to God for conservative bloggers like Fr. Z who provide alternative points of view and information sources than the “dinosaur media.”

    P.S. I’d have voted for George W. Bush had he been able to run for a third term.

  87. Larry says:

    Seminarian said, But it’s not like Diocletian was elected. If anything, now is the time that Catholics need to stand up and be counted, and publicly proclaim the Truth from the rooftops.

    You just might want to ask those who cannot speak as they are butchered. Denver’s Congresswoman has already noted that embryonic stem cell research will be on the agenda and Barbara Boxer has introduced legislation to permit abortion from conception to birth and paid for by the government. Herod was piker and Hitler and his liketypes will have to become footnotes in the book of who killed more people for their agenda.

    Stand up, yes I agree. But it depends on whether you want to change things or just shout in the wind. Elections are won by careful and exhaustive preparation. Now is the time to start. It begins with grass root efforts in neighborhoods among commited adherents to the cause or the candidate. It also takes money. So if you are prepared to commit not simply to making the Church stronger to fend off the hooey that Fr. Z flowing from this election but also the horrific decisions that this election represents pray and get started, NOW! A word of hope—In CALIFORNIA—-Gay Marriage does not exist any longer, and they rejected two Global Warming programs. Sadly they still did not get it right on abortion–but there is HOPE on our side and with us it is a THEOLOGICAL VIRTUE.

  88. Bernie says:

    When asking a bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church for a blessing one says, “Master, blessing.”

  89. Blonde Bertha says:

    I notice the Holy Father has sent an unprecedently warm message of congratulations to Obama, perhaps you should follow his example.

    Now Bush didn’t get one of those when he was elected.

  90. Larry says:

    I notice the Holy Father has sent an unprecedently warm message of congratulations to Obama, perhaps you should follow his example.

    Now Bush didn’t get one of those when he was elected.

    Comment by Blonde Bertha

    Not sure how warm or unprecedented it was since the contents have not been made public and won’t be. Are you suggesting we adopt the “Godfather’s” motto: “Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.” I have and will contionue to pray for the President-elect’s conversion and safety. That is the best I can muster.

  91. Jordanes says:

    Blonde Bertha said: The seperation of church and state means that the church cannot be overtly political and endorse particular candidates, which is exactly was intended by some catholic clergy.

    Yes, and the Catholic Church does not believe in “separation of church and state.” She believes in religious liberty and the moral obligation of human governments to conform their laws and policies to the natural law. In the U.S. we have this thing called the First Amendment, which forbids the government from establishing a state-sponsored religion (the Establishment clause), but also forbids the government from interfering with a religion’s right to influence public policy and law (the Free Exercise clause). It is contrary to the U.S. constitution to require that a church not be overtly political or refrain from endorsing particular candidates, and even more, no human government has any authority to tell Holy Mother Church that she can’t tell her members how to vote or how to exercise their civic duties.

    We also have freedom of speech in the UK

    Sure you do:

    http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=1015

    (and seperation of church and state, of sorts!).

    “Of sorts.” Very funny. A state-supported and state-controlled church, with prelates appointed by Parliament and rubber-stamped by a figurehead monarch, is not exactly what most people would call “separation of church and state.” Looking at the arrangement with the Church of England, I think it’s more like “separation of church and state from their moral obligations” and “separation of British subjects from the Christian faith.”

  92. brendon says:

    The seperation of church and state means that the church cannot be overtly political and endorse particular candidates…

    This is an historically inaccurate description of “the separation of church and state” as it applies to the United States. (I would also note that it is also inaccurate today if one’s church endorses the “correct” candidate.)

    First, the Constitution of the United States says nothing about the separation of church and state. It says that Congress can neither pass laws to establish a national religion nor to prohibit the free exercise of religion. The tax code, insofar as it is part of the United States Code, and insofar as it prohibits clergy from applying the principals of faith to concrete matters of governance for the benefit of the souls in their care, is obviously a violation of the letter and intention of the 1st Amendment. The bishops should–and, under any sane judiciary, would–be allowed to condemn candidates for their positions and bind their flock from voting for them under grave penalty of sin.

    Second, the phrase “wall of separation between church and state” was first used by Thomas Jefferson in a letter he sent to the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut during the time he served as President. A phrase in a letter by a sitting President does nothing more than determine how he understands the law. It is not a legal document and has no force of law. It does not necessarily interpret the Constitution correctly.

    Third, anyone reading said letter and knowing its context sees that the purpose of the metaphor of the wall is to explain how the Constitution protects the church from the interference of the state, i.e. the Federal government, not vice versa. The 1st Amendment is a barrier that prevents the state from overreaching its proper authority and dictating religious doctrine and practice. There is nothing in the letter about protecting the state from the church, and anyone attempting to stretch the metaphor in such a way is, as is obvious in context, stretching it past its breaking point.

    Finally, the use of the “wall of separation” in constitutional jurisprudence is a modern one, and one that breaks from the American political tradition and a proper reading of the text. The first time it was used was in 1947, in a case that first used the 14th Amendment to extend the Bill of Rights to the states, something it was never intended to do. (This is an obvious historical fact, since some who introduced the 14th Amendment also tried and failed to introduce an amendment that would apply the Bill of Rights to the states.) The next time it was used was in 1962, when the Supreme Court used it to justify forbidding prayer in public schools, something that had been understood to be Constitutionally legal since the time the Constitution was ratified. Again, the break with the American political tradition and proper jurisprudence should be obvious. The phrase had been continually misused since.

    In short, the phrase “wall of separation between church and state” is not part of the Constitution of the United States, but is only a metaphor use by one President to explain why the church was free from the interference of the Federal government. As such, it should have no binding authority as law, let alone as constitutional law. The only reason it does is due to poor jurisprudence.

    (Fr. Z, I’m sorry if this is going too far off topic. Please delete the post if that is so.)

  93. Howard says:

    Folks, I would like to point out that the phrase “separation of church and state” does not occur in the US Constitution. The only thing remotely resembling it is the 1st amendment, which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    “Congress shall make no law….” This is a restriction on the central government, not on the churches or anyone else. Whatever the IRS may do must find its justification, if at all, elsewhere.

    The most relevant document to use something more like the phrase “separation of church and state” is the Syllabus of Errors by Pope Pius IX. Specifically, error #55 is “The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.”

  94. Jordanes says:

    Blonde Bertha said: Now Bush didn’t get one of those when he was elected.

    Yes, like all previous presidents who have gotten such letters, he got his when he became president, and his letter was public and cordial. Pope Benedict seems to have felt there was some urgency that it couldn’t wait until January, and had to be kept private.

    See how fun it is speculating about the contents of letters that we’ve never read and never will read?

  95. SM says:

    Blonde Bertha,

    “I notice the Holy Father has sent an unprecedently warm message of congratulations to Obama, perhaps you should follow his example.”

    First, the Holy Father was not the Holy Father when Pres Bush was elected. The Holy Father was elected on April 19, 2005, but Pres Bush was elected the first time in 2000 and the second time in 2004. Your wrong facts = no point being made.

    Second, the contents of the Holy Father’s letter are private, so you don’t know what they say.

  96. Scott W. says:

    The best quote on the IRS thing is from Fr. Philip:

    “The irony here, of course, is that several bishops and churches have already been sued for violating this IRS rule…yes, IRS rule, not a federal law. It is entirely possible that the courts could rule the this regulation unconstitutional, freeing churches from this restraint of free speech and allowing us to keep our tax exempt status! Wouldn’t it be a hoot if these liberal fascists accomplished for us with their thuggery what we haven’t been able to accomplish with lobbying!?”

    As far at the backfiring strategy goes, meh. I seem to recall a passage about hating the light. And another about baskets and lampstands.
    Truth–you can try to tax it, but you can’t make it go away.

  97. CK says:

    The seperation of church and state means that the church cannot be overtly political and endorse particular candidates, which is exactly was intended by some catholic clergy.

    Comment by Blonde Bertha

    One man’s current “overtly political” is another’s preaching of the full gospel. And the state is obligated to keep its distance.

    What is more foreboding is the idea of the tools this president will utilize to do his dirty work…that is, the two to five SC appointments.

  98. Andreas says:

    Friends:

    There is a point to this entire thread: and the point is brought out well with the above picture of young women celebrating the election. I would sum it up by saying:

    “Well intentioned young people are deceived.” These young women are presumably sensitive. Who wants war? Who wants disagreements? Who wants death? Most people don’t. But such is the order of things that to prevent wars one must start with self: with a morally upright life. I am convinced that it is more beneficial for society overall if one person is pure, if one person is pleasing to God, than all the institutional “do good projects” of the entire world, political or otherwise.

    I cannot get excited about a president elect who favors amoral actions. That’s not how the world becomes a better place.

  99. Jordanes says:

    Blonde Bertha said: It seems like the whole world is rejoicing for a change in US leadership

    Yes, most people are uninformed and foolish. It’s one of the effects of original sin.

    Thankfully non-U.S. citizens have no say in U.S. elections (except for those who donated illegally to Sen. Obama’s campaign, that is). Most of them do not hold good will for Americans.

    It’s really not a good thing that so many people all over the world are acting like Obama is their leader, not just the U.S. president.

    with the exception of a small minority from the US blogging on the web.

    And the more than 50 million Americans who cast ballots for people other than the unqualified, corrupt Chicago machine Democrat who ardently supports the killing of children. Anyone who understands what is going on in this country and the world cannot rejoice that Obama was elected.

    Perhaps the overtly political stance taken by some bishops and priests in the US repelled many american voters, and the ploy backfired?

    No, it clearly worked. The problem is that there weren’t enough bishops and priests speaking out and there aren’t enough faithful Catholics. Most faithful and pious Catholics in the U.S. voted for McCain, but most Catholics are neither pious nor faithful, and most of them voted for Obama.

    If the clergy in the UK had acted in a similar fashion during an election then there would rightly have been parliamentary uproar and legal censures taken.

    One of the many reasons we’re thankful to be Americans and not British subjects.

    I pray that Obama will work on the causes of abortion and a reduction will occour by the next US presidential election.

    Yes, like sowing wild oats and then praying for crop failure, some voted for a pro-abortionist while claiming to hope that he’ll do something that would reduce the number of abortions. But pro-abortion Bill Clinton’s anti-life policies caused the abortion rate to jump, and then over the past 8 years our abortion rate has declined under somewhat pro-life George Bush.

    Take a wild guess what will happen to our abortion rate now.

  100. Blonde Bertha says:

    ”Not sure how warm or unprecedented it was since the contents have not been made public and won’t be.”
    ”Second, the contents of the Holy Father’s letter are private, so you don’t know what they say.”

    It is unprecedented, previously the (any) Pope has only sent a congrtaulatory note for the actual inauguration never following the election. Presumedly, he could have not bothered but he chose to make such an affirmative guesture.
    Actually the contents were commented on by an official Vatican spokesperson and press release which described warm wishes on such an historic occasion.

    The Holy Father has chosen to welcome the rightly elected new leader
    of the ‘free world’, perhaps you should follow his good example.

  101. KK says:

    Does a bishop willing to speak the Truth make a difference? With 100% of the precincts reporting, McCain is up by about 6,000. In a national election where 53% of “Catholics” voted for Obama, and in a state that went virtually 50/50, the Missouri Catholics went 55% McCain. If Missouri goes for McCain it will be due to the Catholic swing here. Now, apply that same swing in Indiana, Ohio…..

  102. Scott W. says:

    Nah. No notes. Perhaps many will not care for my Dungeons & Dragons approach to management, but I make it a point that the only time my employees hear from me is when something is wrong. :)

  103. Nancy Reyes says:

    Expect a slow persecution of traditional Catholics…

    The place to watch is abortion: If Obama legalizes the FOCA, the next step is to have the courts order Catholic hospitals to implement it…expect the PC catholic hospitals to copy the “catholic” universities to do thi, claiming they are true to their “mandate” which is not the same as being true to the church.

  104. CK says:

    Would this consideration:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/joeBiden/idUSTRE4A476Z20081105

    stall the signing of FOCA?

  105. Jordanes says:

    Blonde Bertha said: It is unprecedented, previously the (any) Pope has only sent a congrtaulatory note for the actual inauguration never following the election. Presumedly, he could have not bothered but he chose to make such an affirmative guesture.

    Yes, the reports indicate that there are a lot of giddy people at the Vatican right now — a lot of them didn’t try to hard to conceal their disdain for Pres. Bush, and it’s also natural to get carried away with the fact that for the first time ever half-black guy engineered his election as president. For that reason alone the Pope sending his secret letter is understandable.

    Actually the contents were commented on by an official Vatican spokesperson and press release which described warm wishes on such an historic occasion.

    Yes, the comments and release were vague, and pointed out that the letter is private and will not be made public.

    The Holy Father has chosen to welcome the rightly elected new leader of the ‘free world’,

    Very few American presidents have ever been “rightly elected.” This isn’t one of those exceptions. But he’ll get to play his games for 4 years, and we’ll just have to grit our teeth and hang on.

    perhaps you should follow his good example.

    I pray for Caesar, and I hope he doesn’t kill too many people, but I don’t warmly congratulate Chicago pols for doing what they do best. Unlike the Holy Father, I’m not a sovereign prince, nor am I an elected official or an envoy, so I don’t need to engage in diplomatic niceties and symbolic etiquette.

  106. Jane says:

    I heard one person (on TV) saying that Obama is living the dream. The unborn babies are living the nightmare. Being Australian I did not have any say in this election, except by prayer. When I realised that Obama was winning, I had to walk away from the TV to avoid getting stressed.

  107. Jane, as an absentee American voter living in Australia, I voted pro-life :-) I also voted in the Minnesota US Senate race. It’s in recount –separated by 462 votes in the pro-life candidate’s favor :-)

  108. Brian says:

    GD, London,
    If Obama supported a law that legalized murdering 1,000,000 elderly per year would you still proclaim him as bringing in an era of justice.

    You say, “Of course, I am opposed to abortion, and think it to be a grave evil. Whether an Obama presidency will actually result in abortion laws being relaxed, is something we can only judge in time.”

    I don’t believe that you weigh the slaughter of 1,000,000 innocent, precious unborn children as seriously as you would another group of humans. If Obama said he supported a family’s right to choose whether or not to exterminate their grandmother, would you similarly grant him the benefit of time?

    Brian

  109. “. . . and the truth is passed on by the small fervent band of the few. Not by the many but by dauntless, resolute, dedicated few.”

    ~ John Henry Cardinal Newman

  110. ioannes says:

    Blonde Bertha,

    If I remember correctly President Bush was invited to take a tour of the Pope’s private gardens when he visited Rome earlier this year. That was unprecedented I believe. I also recall seeing Cardinal Egan enjoying a hearty laugh with Sen. Obama at the Al Smith Dinner. That didn’t prevent him from making very direct statements against voting for Obama, either before or after. It is no secret that Pope Benedict has a great affinity for the U.S. based on his recent statements and visit. Why shouldn’t he send congratulations

  111. beng says:

    I disagree with Fr. Z’s sentiment in the post. [Hmmm... I don't think "sentiment" is easy to identify.]

    What we saw before the election was the growth of, as Jeff Miller from The Curt Jester puts it, episcopal spines.

    More and more Catholic Hierarchis are coming forward to voice their strong opposition for abortion and actually, here it is, TEACH, their flocks not to vote against their “eternal salvation.”

    This Obama presidency can be ablessing in disguise. I optimistically predict that faith will grom stronger in darkened times like it always has.

  112. Malta says:

    jim

    You would be correct, and Malta is English speaking

  113. Peg says:

    Just read this post on another blog. Prof.William Thomas Walsh who wrote “Our Lady of Fatima” interviewed Sister Lucy about Our Lady’s warning: (Sister Lucy speaking) “What Our Lady wants is that the Pope and all the bishops in the world shall consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart on one special day. If this is done, She will convert Russia and there will be peace. If it is not done, the errors of Russia will spread through every country in the world.”
    (Prof. Walsh)”Does this mean, in your opinion, that every country without exception, will be overcome by communism?”
    (Sister Lucy responds) “Yes”
    Clarifying further, Prof. Walsh asked:”Does that mean the United States of America too?”
    (Sister Lucy answered) “Yes”.
    Pray the rosary that the Holy Father fulfills the request of Our Lady, soon!

  114. ioannes says:

    More and more Catholic Hierarchis are coming forward to voice their strong opposition for abortion and actually, here it is, TEACH, their flocks not to vote against their “eternal salvation.”

    As impressive as that is there is still more to this then is being addressed. As abhorent as abortion is it is still just an underlying byproduct of the whole contraceptive mentality which is still practiced by many of the regular Church-goers who otherwise consider themselves pro-life. Whether or not Obama can get FOCA through he has promised a massive increase in public funding for artificial birth control. And there will be little to no opposition to that in Congress. Of course this will be a whole lot more delicate situation for our Bishops but it is either wright or it is wrong and of course the Church has spoken that it is wrong. Now if it is intrisically evil then it is a grave offense against God and we cannot assume that He is going to allow this to go on in perpetuity without sending us a huge wake up call.

  115. Tom Seaver says:

    Did anyone notice the flag of the USSR in the screenshot? Funny that you could not call The Messiah a “marxist” but his supporters celebrate by strolling around with the flag of one of the most oppressive regimes in history.

  116. Bob says:

    Now is when we need true separation of church and state. Either you follow what the secularist government tells you is right. Or what the church tells you is right!. You think abortion is ok, then your excommunicated!. No questions asked!. You want women priests, then you are excommunicated, no questions asked!. There is more than one way to skin secularism!. You want to violate church laws and tradition. Then you are banished!. I believe our Holy Father said that the church would become smaller in the future. Well looks like we are seeing the beginning of that. This election proved where catholics in this country stand. And now we need to see who is to blame for it, and hold them accountable. If there is clergy who our guilty, then they are to be removed permanently from their positions. Catholics will have to make a choice, and no compromises. Your with us or against us. The Church as a whole needs to be cleaned out of liberalism permanently.

  117. Dan H says:

    I have to say this because I am a devout Catholic … I don’t pray my rosary everyday however I can say that the converting to the Catholic has given me a moral grounding that I am truly proud of. My RCIA instructor before the Easter Vigil said, “I don’t want after you receive our Lord to think that it is all over and that you don’t have to learn more about the faith. Become Super Catholics!”. I can say that I have tried my hardest to live up to those ideals and it shames me to know that my family and fiancee are catholics and I know for a fact that everyone of them voted for Obama except me! I prayed so hard for them, it seems as if they saw “economy and the fact that he was black as a deciding factor”. I have to state that I am Afro-American and living in NYC. So you know that I am living in BLUE COUNTRY. God Bless Cardinal Egan and all of the bishops that spoke out. On for those bishops that said nothing … you have a lot to answer for. Am I angry … heck yeah. I have been a catholic for three years and in that time I have seen the cafeteria door has been left open for those that want to make up there own truths. This nonsense has to stop. As a famous movie I know said, “Go to your windows, open them up and say. I AM MAD AS HELL AND I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!” I don’t know about you ladies and gents, this Church Militant is ready for the fight!

  118. Brian says:

    Oh No!
    Everyone who voted for Obama is a Communist! (I mean, JUST LOOK at that photo!!!!)

    This is DEFINITELY the predicted “chastisement”. Just think of all those babies who will die, whereas under the previous Republican government not one baby…. oh right, not one baby was saved from abortion. But rest assured, the chastisement is “coming”. (I happen to think it’s been here a long time.)

    The Republican Pro-Life legacy is this: they used abortion first and foremost as a wedge issue, always grandstanding, never committing, putting it all on the line. It’s good they lost bad; maybe a Dem. party comfortable with their dominance will allow more pro-life candidates to penetrate their ranks. Then abortion wouldn’t be a one party issue, a phenomenon that warps a lot of peoples’ minds into thinking that the Church = the GOP.
    And, by the way, no you can’t legislate Charity, but you can and MUST legislate Justice – look up the difference. start here Summa Theol. II.2. Q. 58

  119. Chris Altieri says:

    Dear Fr Zuhlsdorf,

    Some context, please: the screenshot is of young people from what country? Am I to believe that there was a red flag with the hammer and sickle at a Barack victory party? I cannot believe that American supporters of Obama in America would tolerate such an outrage.

  120. Here in Europe, you find “pacifists” waving such monstrosities at “peace marches” while wearing che guevara t-shirts and khefias (is that the right plural?).

  121. EDG says:

    Chris Altieri – The screenshot was from a demonstration outside the White House on the night of the election after it became apparent that Obama had won. Hundreds of (mostly white) college students marched downtown and stood outside the WH chanting taunts and waving flags, among them, the Communist flag.

  122. Chris: No, that was a screenshot of a broadcast of celebrations by young people in the USA… in fact in front of the White House in Washington D.C.

  123. Calleva says:

    Given the cordial personal relationship between the Pope and George W, and the fact that Cardinal Ratzinger is on record as saying that pro-choice politicians and their supporters should not receive communion, I think it unlikely that our Holy Father is endorsing Obama personally. His private letter is no doubt a message of good will understanding the delight that so many African-Americans are feeling right now. This delight is not something that one can begrudge them. I’m sure that there are black Americans who would have made wonderful presidents, but have to be convinced that Obama is one of them.

    I’m also from the UK, though I have lived in the States and have distant relatives there.

    I’d like to know exactly what Obama stands for. Maybe my compatriots Blonde Bertha or DG could tell me what I am not getting. All I know about Obama is that:
    - he is not George Bush Jr
    - he stands for ‘change’ (vague). Details please? is it like Tony Blair’s ‘things can only get better’ (which they haven’t)?
    - he is young, charismatic and has a nice family
    - he is extremely liberal on abortion
    - he will bring troops back from Iraq sometime soonish
    - a lot of hollywood people and rock stars think he’s groovy
    - he is of mixed race parentage (a point which in a fair society should not count either way).

    I get the feeling that Obama’s campaign was a victory of style over substance. A lot of the messianic language does trouble me. I wish you guys well, but can’t get over the feeling that the new emperor has no clothes. I hope I’m wrong!

  124. John Fannon says:

    Well said Dan H! I have copied your post and am distributing it to my contacts.

    Over in the UK we’ve got our own fight on our hands and will be sleepwalking into something like the FOCA as soon as this Government finds Parliamentary time to do so. The Government has just passed the HFE bill which allows animal human hydrid embryos to be created and also fatherless IVF children and designer babies (saviour siblings). Attempts to further liberalise the current abortion laws were only withdrawn when the Government decided that it might be risking the HFE bill being timed out. So all these delights are to come.

    Our Labour Government relies on Catholics for a lot of its support and I dare say that at the next election many pro abortion MPs will rely on Catholic voters for their majority.

    Catholics have for too long tried to get on with their lives in this country and hoped people wouldn’t notice. But we’ve got to start making a b—-y nuisance of ourselves.

  125. TAAD says:

    I don’t know if I’m correct in this or not, but I continue to have this gnawing thought going through my head lately that the entire argument is being centered around the Gospels and the removal of Christ and the Cross from our dialogue when we speak on current issues. I recall several great commentators (Fulton Sheen as one) state that the evil one will come and offer us the Gospels minus Christ and the Cross.I am not saying anyone is the anti-christ. Or as I recall Sheen’s words “They have no bread.” The arguments for voting for a pro-abortion candidate and many of the issues within and outside the church revolve around this idea, about justice and social justice, but no mention of Christ and the Cross (suffering). It seems to me that we have taken everything out the Gospels, or cherry picked them, and are left with the idea of feeding the hungry, etc… It sort of parallels what Judas was concerned about when he criticized the women who anointed Christ with the expensive oils. He wasn’t interested in Christ or the Cross, but more concerned about the social state even though he himself was stealing. The arguments both within and outside church have this same idea being taken up

  126. Michael J says:

    Brian,
    I am not here to defend the republican party or to in any way suggest that a political party can offer “salvation” to a nation, but your statement that “not one baby was saved from abortion” is patently false.

    Why must your apparent bitterness about the perceived shortcomings of a particular political party blind you to the very real evil coming our way?

  127. Scott W. says:

    Why must your apparent bitterness about the perceived shortcomings of a particular political party blind you to the very real evil coming our way?

    It is indeed a curious thing I’ve experienced with people from the more progressive camp–bitter in defeat, bitter in victory. Poor chaps. I’ll send some prayers.