I saw in WaPo that the homosexual Episcopalian ex-bishop of New Hampshire is telling Catholics what their doctrine and discipline should be.
This serves as a follow-up to my post about Protestants who deign to determine for Catholics what ordination really is and what Mass really is. That is to say, when Protestant churches host a women-priest circus, they are either blatantly protesting the Catholic Church concerning her most sacred rites, or they are dictating to the Church what Catholics ought to believe.
So much for ecumenism!
Similarly, the openly homosexual Robinson takes it upon himself to tell Catholics what to do. We should conform ourselves to his private homosexual life-styles choice. And if we don’t, we are bad and backward and will lose all our membership in the Church, because, after all, no one believes what white male Catholic prelates say.
If you do read his piece, take note that Robinson thinks that the clerical abuse scandal we Catholics endured – and have pretty much cleaned up – has provided him and everyone else under the sun with carte blanche when it comes to telling Catholics what they ought to believe. Never mind the fact that Protestants have their own black swamp of child abuse problems. Oh no! They get a pass from the media, and from themselves, because they are not Catholic. And shall we forget Robinson’s colleague in the episcopal episcopate? The female bishop – subsequently their presiding bishop – who ordained an ex-Catholic whom she knew was accused of child abuse? HERE
I won’t go into all the details of Robinson’s condescending diatribe, but I will comment on this, from the very first paragraph:
Polling shows that ex-Catholics are the third largest religious group in the United States. Many Catholic laity are experiencing a painful disconnect between the official teachings and pronouncements of the Catholic hierarchy and what they believe in their hearts. It’s no wonder they are voting with their feet.
Two points.
First, even if he is right and fallen-away Catholics are indeed the third-largest religious group, that still makes them a lot bigger than the pro-sodomy, pro-abortion Episcopal Church.
Second, as much as I would like to recover our fallen-away brethren, if they will not embrace their Catholic Faith in its fullness, then they should go join Robinson. His churches are emptying too.
UPDATE 22:06 GMT:
A reader sent this…
Gene Robinson was elected Bishop of New Hampshire in 2003. This was the dawning of the New Age when “All sorts and conditions of men,” as the Prayer Book would say, would begin flocking to the Episcopal,Church. Especially in New Hampshire…
AVERAGE SUNDAY ATTENDANCE
EPISCOPAL DIOCESE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE:
2001 5,289 people attending
2011 4,083 people attending
DECLINE 2001-2011 -23.0%
UPDATE 23:03 GMT:
Ed Peters, the trouble-making academic and canonist, comments on Robinson HERE.
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“no one believes what white male Catholic prelates say.”
or, if one is an Episcopal liberal, what black male Anglican African bishops have to say – they’re backwards and need to be enlightened. White man’s burden is an especially heavy one for modern liberals.
I agree with the fact we should care for our dissenting brethren, but also agree with the fact that Christ was left alone when his words sounded too compromising and his teaching too great to bear. It reminds me of a post from last year:
https://wdtprs.com/2012/03/the-church-will-become-small-and-will-have-to-start-afresh/
WRT fallen-away Catholics, it’s not entirely clear how many of them really are fallen away and how many are just prodigal children. So the statistics that fallen-away Catholics are indeed the third-largest religious group (I’ve heard this statistic from many sources) is meaningless.
Statistically, although the percent of Catholics appears stable in Canada and the US does appear that many more people leave the faith than is accounted for by converts and immigration:
http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.ca/2012/10/were-us-catholics-raptured-again.html
It’s also clear that the Catholic faith tends to have higher retention rates (even if Catholics stay for nostalgia) than other religions and most Protestant denominations:
http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.ca/2012/12/the-future-of-religious-affiliation-in.html
http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.ca/2012/06/reverts-catholics-who-left-and-came.html
So there’s reason to believe that there are more prodigal children than we’d otherwise think.
The key question is whether the bulk of prodigal children are lukewarm Catholics returning due to nostalgia (even though they’re Episcopalian in beliefs) or humbled zealots who want to learn as much of the faith as they can to make up for lost time and their almost stolen birthright.
Robinson’s “consecration” as a bishop led directly to my Tiber swim. And that picture reminds me of the DVD cover art for Fellini’s “Satyricon.”
I think certain Muslims should stop killing people indiscriminately, but you know what? They never listen.
Because. I’m. Not. Muslim.
This guy is not Catholic. He merits no attention on matters Catholic.
That picture…oh my.
I find it very off-putting and disrespectful when people from other faiths proselytize. I attended a wedding at an Episcopal church last year, and the pastor seized on the opportunity to preach to everyone about the inclusive beliefs of the Episcopal church, especially with regard to communion. He knew full well there Catholics and other non-Episcopalians present.
Midwest Conservative Journal had a great take on this article.
http://themcj.com/?p=39955
The Episcopalian Church seems to be hell-bent on destroying itself. They’ve gave the green light to “ordaining” about anyone and everyone possible and I think they consecrated this joker (and their Grand Poobah…) specifically to get bonus points amongst the liberal-church elites while at the same time thumbing their nose at Canterbury, which is still nominally “conservative” on some fronts.
Why this guy wrote that article? It obviously isn’t a real theological challenge to the Roman Church (which the Epo clergy used to do when they still were able to enter into real debate) but some ploy for attention. Someone with a simple Baltimore Catechism understanding of Catholic teaching on the Eucharist could have written a better criticism. VGR must not be in the news as much as he was a new story…
I just lost my appetite for my chicken souvlaki and Greek salad. It’s been tainted by the Greek-themed image you posted. Please post warnings when you post disturbing images.
Is there really any point in bringing back Catholics who aren’t willing to be catholic, but rather manipulate and deceive those who do believe what the Church teaches, but are still seeking to make sense out of it? Quality over quantity.
RomeontheRange,
His so-called “consecration” was the beginning of the end for me as well. Of course the fact that heretics such as “Bishop” Spong being allowed free run while the few remaining TEC “orthodox” bishops were constantly being attacked (Bp. Lawrence of SC just the latest) certainly pushed me along as well. Although I guess for Spong to be a heretic he would have to actually still be a Christian! After being Catholic in mind for quite awhile I very joyously made it official and walked up on the right side of the Tiber at the Easter Vigil. Many thanks to Fr. Z and the many commenters on the site who have been a great help in my journey without even knowing it.
Did you really need to put up that pic of the garlanded buddies?
I’ll have to scour my imagination with the soap of an extra five decades of the Holy Rosary to rid myself of that image.
Warren,
TIP: Absolution can rid the imagination of unwanted disturbing images burned into it. :)
“Bishop” Robinson is a sideshow but not a threat to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The real threat are those priests within the Catholic Church who push the gay rights agenda. In Boston we have priests who testified before the state legislature in favor of gay marriage. They’re still “in good standing.” We have pastors who open their churches to gay rights activists and even (apparently) bless gay marriages. They’re still “in good standing” too. It’s hard to correct Piskies when our Catholic bishops fail to discipline these wolves among the sheep.
Fr. Z says…”That is to say, when Protestant churches host a women-priest circus, they are either blatantly protesting the Catholic Church concerning her most sacred rites, or they are dictating to the Church what Catholics ought to believe.”
I am unclear why we should be surprised when protestants do these things. I mean blatant protestation of the Catholic Church is fundamentally what it means to be a protestant, isn’t it? I mean, of course, I have met many (probably most) who are quite charitable and don’t call me an idol worshiper or Pope-slave to my face, but if they really didn’t think Marian doctrines or Papal Supremacy were a problem, then they would become Catholic. If we don’t see it on the surface, that doesn’t mean these things really don’t count deep down to protestants. With all charity, the fact that they are protestants should clue us in to the fact that they do not accept what Catholics believe about their most sacred rites.
It bothers me much more that they deny the Real Presence and generally have disdain for our Blessed Mother than that they are complicit in this buffoonery involving the wymynprystyssss. I recognize that their denial of the Real Presence and their wymynprystyss buffoonery are not unrelated.
Protestantism is by definition anti-Catholic, not just non-Catholic. Ecumenism should concentrate on reunification of East and West, the famous breathing with two lungs, which would enhance the vitality of the whole Church. The West needs more Marian mysticism and the East needs more Thomistic rationality. Official outreach to Protestants whose very existence depends on rebellion against the one true Church is a strange expenditure of resources, to say the least.
What else do you expect from the Episcopal/Anglican/Church of England? A church founded by a disobedient, adulterous, murderous king. Their current beliefs are only a variation on a theme. A few years ago I went into a non-denominational “Christian” bookstore looking to purchase a crucifix. The saleswoman showed me several “risen Christ” crucifixes, and when I asked if they had any traditional types, stated, loudly and proudly “Oh no, we Anglicans worship the RISEN Christ, not the dead Christ Catholics do.” Their articles of faith are based upon negative statements against Catholic beliefs, their services a shallow copy-cat of Catholic Masses. Without someone to despise and persecute they haven’t a leg to stand upon. Nothing has changed for them save the fact their numbers are dwindling worldwide whereas ours are increasing.
Further proof, were any needed, that following the line liberals want would destroy the Church. Remind me, someone, where do the Episcs stand in terms of numbers – and going down?
Marylise, well said!
@ mamajean who said “I find it very off-putting and disrespectful when people from other faiths proselytize.”
I have to disagree with you there. I find it refreshing that they give a care about where I end up. I find it challenging in a way that forces me to be even more knowledgeable about the Faith in defense. If I was never proselytized by non-denominational protestants in college, I would in all likelihood still be a nominal Catholic. The world doesn’t need any more nominal Catholic physicians pushing birth control, etc. Deo gratias for those campus ministers visiting my college dorm room trying to proselytize me. The people I have had really, truly proselytizing me were simply trying to save my soul from what they thought was endangering that (Catholicism, haha). They were wrong, but they were trying to love me in the best way they could.
But I do not think this article, nor the wymynprystyssys costume party at the UCC building in Louisville were about proselytization in any real misplaced love sort of sense. They were about good feelings and smiley glad hands and pandering and, ultimately, saying “to heck with you” to the Catholic priesthood and hierarchy.
I mentioned this on my blog last week, I’ll highlight the points here.
1. We aren’t a Church 1.2 Billion members strong, this number needs to stop being used.
2. There really are two types of Catholic, not “traditional” and “liberal”, but rather, Practicing Catholic (or just Catholic) and non-practicing catholic.
Us real Catholics constantly have to “prove” our faith and obedience, meanwhile these fakers have no problem telling us what we “should believe”. Its strange really.
Why dialogue with Heresy when all you need to do is constantly preach the Truth?
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus!
God Bless.
Mamajen: COMPLETELY agree. Oh ugh. I can’t believe he did that!
Well boys, you may consider yourselves to be queens, but a crown of flowers does not make you the Queen of Heaven. Heck, it doesn’t even make you the queen of England.
P.S. Wreaths of laurel won’t help you in your quest to become Aristotle either.
The photo reminds me of the depictions of Bottom in Midsummer Night’s Dream. Take your “pic”…
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_liw4e3xeAd1qz7p2xo1_500.jpg
http://showmanshaman.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/asss-head.jpg
http://cmsimg.mycentraljersey.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CN&Date=20130427&Category=NJENT&ArtNo=304270002&Ref=V1&MaxW=300&Border=0&DanceVision-brings-ballet-Dream-life
I hope this author’s poll numbers are right, because that means there are a lot of people who still identify in some way with the Catholic church. Even if right now they use that self-identification in a mocking or disparaging way, a time will come when they begin to question why they left.
Atra Dicenda, Rubra Agenda said “if they really didn’t think Marian doctrines or Papal Supremacy were a problem, then they would become Catholic. ”
That might have been true 50 years ago (when “if you’re not in my denomination meant you were going to Hell”), but not today (when “it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you’re Christian/Good Person”).
Ties to denominations are rather fluid these days. It’s not uncommon for a Protestant to go through a dozen or so denominations in their life-time and base their decisions more on the likeability of the pastor, how well they fit into the community, and the services and amenities a particular parish has. They may not be Catholic for the simple reason that it doesn’t “fill their needs”. Unfortunately, many Catholics leave the faith for precisely this reason, i.e. “they’re not being fed”, and have not been taught that only the Catholic Church possesses the living bread that all who eat with the right disposition will have both eternal life and will never hunger again.
@AnilWang:
You’re right, of course, that Catholics leave the faith mostly because they have not ever learned what the Catholic Church teaches and possesses(Sheen’s classic “there are millions who hate what they mistakenly think the Catholic Church is…). But my point is that when Catholics leave for this reason, or when protestants offer then hospitality and celebrate their vices in order to make them feel welcome, I do not really consider this proselytization. I consider it pandering. Proselytization, in my experience and in my understanding, is more of an intellectual argument…thus people who don’t really believe there is a “right way” cannot really proselytize TOWARD anything, they can only draw people AWAY from something into the nothingness of relativism.
–“If those who have fallen short of God’s moral desires for humankind are to be denied Communion, then none of us can in good conscience receive the body and blood of Christ. The good news message of Jesus Christ is that despite our failure to be all that God would want us to be, we are all welcome at the Lord’s Table anyway. Until the Roman Catholic hierarchy gets that right, they might prayerfully consider quieting their judgmental rhetoric and contemplating the humility Jesus suggested as a value to be lived by all.”–
That’s what he says. Yet in Scriptures, this is what is taught: “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.” (1 Cor. 11:1-2) and this “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.” 1 Cor. 11:26-30.
The difference between the two messages is not subtle. If a bishop can look into the epistles and see that if Our Lord or St. James or St. Paul or St. Peter were in his shoes, they’d be getting the same abuse he’s getting, if not worse, then I’d say that bishop is on the right track.
“It’s no wonder they are voting with their feet.”
If they are, they ain’t voting Episcopalian, Bishop Robinson.
The Catholic Church *has* shed a large number of Catholics in recent decades. But when you are about a quarter of the population – as the Catholic Church has been in the U.S. for the last century – any demographic changes are going to look relatively large.
Some Catholics left because they weren’t being spiritually fed. Most of those wound up as evangelicals (an inconvenient point for this narrative). Some Catholics have left over Church moral teachings. But on current survey data, those people are mostly remaining unchurched. Especially the young. If Generation Y is so in line with your moral beliefs, Bishop Robinson, why are virtually none of them darkening the door at their neighborhood Episcopal church?
If the Catholic Church has certain difficulties, they are nothing compared to the freefall at work in the TEC. Entire dioceses and parishes are splitting away, some to continuing Anglican groups, some the Catholic ordinariates. Yet Bishop Robinson apparently never stops to reflect on why that is, beyond, presumably, dismissing them all as bigots.
We have our own clergy saying things in contradiction to the Magisterium, too – e.g., Archbishop Marini is the latest which brings me to a question, as well.
When did things start to go wrong with the Church? I remember Mass in Latin through most of my teen years, then it seemed to change overnight. I remember the clergy seemingly obedient to their bishops and the bishops were obeyed without question. Everyone went to Confession and Mass and most (?) Catholics went to Catholic schools. I also never remember the “questions” that arise all the time: abortion, homosexual “rights” and clergy, etc.
What really happened and why is it still happening?
@Atra Dicenda, Rubra Agenda
If I felt that they really gave a care where I ended up, I might be able to handle it more patiently. In most cases I’ve experienced it seems more like a pride thing than genuine care about my salvation.
Jeannie_C: You are right that the founder of Anglicanism was disobedient, adulterous and murderous. However, it is important to remember that he was also a thief on a grand scale. Anything good in his false religion — whether spiritual or material — was simply stolen from the Catholic Church. No doubt this historical fact explains the hatred of the Catholic Church embodied in BBC dramas and comedies to this day. They figure if they keep attacking the Church, especially by ridicule, no one will suspect the truth about what really happened. If their behaviour was not so wicked, it would almost be funny — like a child pretending he did not steal the cookies when his fingers are still covered in crumbs.
@Atra Dicenda, Rubra Agenda,
Probably true in many cases, but I know it wasn’t true in my case. I was never confirmed since it was “optional” and only had a first communion knowledge of the faith (the Eucharist is special in some way. reverence is due to God, Mary and Jesus were treasured, but it was never made explicit that Jesus was God, morality was central), I didn’t know that I should expect more. So when in high school I was presented with different faiths that seemed to be compatible with the truths I was taught I didn’t see looking for the fullness of truth wherever it is found as leaving the faith (even if I never attended mass or had private devotions).
I was anything but a relativist. I could best be described as someone who adhered to Platonic/Aristolian/Stoic worldview and only returned once I realized, like Justin Martyr and countless neo-Platonists of old that Christianity completes Classical Philosphy without contradicting it in any meaningful way. From there, it is just a matter of determining which denomination (or in the case of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, “which pre-denomination”) contained the True, the Good, and the Beautiful.
I don’t think I’m alone in leaving the faith without denying the faith or being either relativist or indifferentist. As mentioned my above post (which is now visible after moderation), the statistics of fallen away Catholics indicate many return, though it’s unclear whether the reverts are doing so because they are on fire for the faith they just discovered or because they’re nostalgic. But I also don’t think I’m alone in finding more Catholic Truth outside the faith than I would have inside (as a lukewarm poorly catechized Catholic), so as long as the poor catechesis doesn’t turn into anti-Catholic resentment they were being lied to, I don’t think the only reason the former Catholics haven’t returned is due to Catholics who do know the faith being negligent because I should not take a lot to get them to return.
That picture kinda makes me want to vomit… Sigh.
Bob B.: “When did things start to go wrong with the Church? I remember Mass in Latin through most of my teen years, then it seemed to change overnight. I remember the clergy seemingly obedient to their bishops and the bishops were obeyed without question. Everyone went to Confession and Mass and most (?) Catholics went to Catholic schools. I also never remember the “questions” that arise all the time: abortion, homosexual “rights” and clergy, etc.
What really happened and why is it still happening?”
You can’t radically change the Church’s liturgy and expect nothing dire will happen. People figured if the Mass was changeable, then EVERYTHING about the Catholic Church is malleable. Sadly we are seeing a diabolical disorientation where far too many of our pastors are leading the flock astray with their heretical and modernist positions. Have a disorganized Mass, Have a Disorganized and Confused Church. Save the Liturgy, Save the World. Domine, miserere nobis. +JMJ+
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While I have no doubt the Episcopal diocese in New Hampshire is indeed bleeding membership, could Fr. Z source the statistics posted from a reader? I would hate to be part of the blight of the internet and post inaccurate information that I can not substantiate. (not suggesting for even a moment that this blog has done that…I mean my further forwarding)
@Thomas – doubt ye?
Re. Episcopal Church USA average Sunday attendance (ASA) – I found 2000-2010, and in a separate document 2010-2011.
http://archive.episcopalchurch.org/documents/ASA_by_ProvinceDiocese2000-2010.pdf
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/sites/default/files/downloads/statistical_totals_for_the_episcopal_church_by_province_and_diocese_2010-2011.pdf
They have a lot to teach us, their church is really booming with the rejection of the Gospel and acceptance of sin!
I think there are several diocese in the U.S. that have more members than the entire Episcopal church here. But I don’t think it’s a cause for gloating. Right before our eyes we are seeing a church vanish. It’s tragic. We should be carefully learning from their experience lest we repeat it ourselves. I do think aspects of the New Evangelization are helpful along these lines.
I recall New Hampshire is a very left leaning state with gay marriage being legal there. They may all think they have the wind at their backs, but as history shows, things do not go very well for empires that accept sodomy.
. . . meaning the Aztec and Roman Empires. As Ariel Durant wrote: “A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.”
As my mom, and apparently pope Francis, would say. Son un par de “sin vergüensas”
If it were possible to sit down with Robinson and have an honest conversation about the faith, he would admit to a belief in the Incarnation that is entirely subjective–not that it happened but that he pretends that it does (as if the subject were the Easter Bunny).
He would also admit that at times he is not all that sure that God exists. The Eucharist? If someone (incl Catholics and Orthodox) believes it’s the Body of Christ, fine; if not, that’s fine too. (Of course, with the Episcopalians, it’s objectively not).
I grew up an Episcopalian, and I know how they operate. There is one line that is public and makes (or at one time, made) them sound almost Catholic. And there is another that is private and accurately indicates what they believe–or in most cases, what they don’t.
NB: In the Ratzinger Memoirs he tells the story of a student leader who had publicly advocated radical changes in the Church. Later, in a private conversation the student said that he had lost the faith.
@robtbrown
I grew up an Episcopalian, and I know how they operate. There is one line that is public and makes (or at one time, made) them sound almost Catholic. And there is another that is private and accurately indicates what they believe–or in most cases, what they don’t.
Yes! This has been my experience with Anglicans, too (which isn’t to dismiss the fact that some really are “almost Catholic”). They take great pride in how their services look (I’ve actually been told “we’re more Catholic than you”!), but I’ve seen no evidence of Catholicism in their daily lives. They don’t seem to “get” what is truly important in Catholicism.
2011 4,083 people attending
There are suburban Catholic parishes with more bodies showing up than that.
As I’ve said: The Episcopal Church is well on track to reduce itself to a tiny boutique urban, mostly gay, high church universalist denomination, with very few people but lots of old pretty buildings.
Numbers aren’t always correlated with sound teaching. But when your church is in demographic freefall and massive schisms, some critical self-examination should be in order.
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Hello frjim,
We should be carefully learning from their experience lest we repeat it ourselves.
It’s true: Liberalism kills churches.
And religious orders.
This is not to defend Henry VIII who others on here have pointed out usurped ecclesiastical power, plundered monasteries and chantries, commuted adultery and murder however I would seem to me his personal beliefs were a darn sight closer to Catholicism than a number of the politicians who label themselves catholic (small c) today. It wasn’t until the reign of the boy king Edward VI that Cranmer really got to work decatholicising England.
Let the orthodox Anglicans swim the Tiber (I did), focus more on the ‘two lung’ solution for ecumenism and let the now self-parodying institutional Anglicanism wither away in peace.
Episcopal churches get crowds for weddings and the rare Christening. Bigger crowds for concerts and organ recitals. They are gorgeous concert halls/event spaces.
jhnewman, to say that Henry’s ideas were closer to Rome than other protestants after him is nonsense. Just take your pick as to where you part with Rome.
A short list of his protestantism: 1) destroying chantries dedicated to praying for souls in purgatory and suppressing purgatory as a teaching; 2) destroying the lives of thousands of priests, nuns, monks, and lay brothers for the sake of paying back his political allies by giving them land in lieu of loans for wars and lifestyle-even former friends of his, such as the monks from Charterhouse were pushed to martyrdom; 3) stating that the Bishop of Rome had no authority over England, and Wales; 4) destroying Catholic hospitals, orphanages and old folks’ homes giving them to friends who then proceeded to make a profit from such “charities”; 5) living in adultery with all the women he called wives before Katherine died, thus undermining the Catholic teaching on marriage; 6) making his own child, Mary, illegitimate, in favor of the offspring of Anne Boleyn., thus changing Catholic common law; 7) declaring himself the Supreme Head of the Church; 8) encouraging the growth of the protestant party in Parliament to ensue his changes would continue under his son after his death; 9) teaching his daughter Elizabeth to be a tyrant against Catholicism, as it was she who passed the most horrible laws against Catholics ever–you can find the list in the Catholic Encyclopedia. And, there is more.
But, the worst thing to me that Henry did was usher in the age of secularism, as people became cynical of religion and gave more and more power to government in the shape of Parliament to govern their lives. Before Henry, there was little to no upset about the Catholic Church as found in some of the other countries of Europe. In one generation, Henry created a protestant nation out of a Catholic one. Anglicans lie about this, of course, as they see themselves as Catholics.
There is a lyric of a country and western song, that I believe has roots in an old American proverb, “You’ve got to stand for something or you’ll fall for anything.”
I think this sums up the state of the Episcopals. When anything goes, what’s the point? If there are no standards, why does the church even exist? It becomes irrelevant.
If we are not careful, this irrelevancy could happen to us as well.
Bob B.: “When did things start to go wrong with the Church?
This makes for interesting reading:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html
Yes, Episcopal churches hold large weddings. That’s because they will marry anyone who wants to walk down an aisle in a big white dress but can’t do so in their own church. So long as they pay for it. You don’t need to believe in anything to be married by an Episcopal minister in church, just shell out, because, after all, marriage isn’t considered a sacrament in their church – they only have two sacraments, baptism and eucharist, but then again don’t believe in the True Presence, so basically just bread and wine.
Supertradmum, a very well written post. Yes, I agree the public actions of Henry VIII were deplorable, evil and most uncatholic. But the same monarch who put to death those who refused to acknowledge him as head of the church in England, gutted monasteries and chantries and desecrated shrines also put killed those who held Zwinglian ideas on the Eucharist, and put aside £600 a year in his will for masses for his soul. A real mixed bag. I don’t deny his wickedness, just I find it a bit too simplistic when people equate roll up roll up for the Rainbow Homo WymynPriest Anglieucharist TM with what was going on in HVIII’s head. A consequence of his actions though? Yes of course, no doubt. No good ever comes from separating yourself (and unfortunately for us multiple millions of people over several centuries) from The Mystical Body of Christ
Just looking at that picture makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. They don’t look like they have a whole lot of time left. And they are blithely walking, no running, to an eternity of torture. God help them.
Holy Mother Church is the only one that really cares what happens to these poor souls. The stats on these unholy unions should be enough to prove that they are a detriment to the individual and society.
A study on short-term same-sex registered partnerships in Norway and Sweden found that divorce rates were 50-167% higher for same-sex couples than opposite-sex marriages, and that unions of lesbians are considerably less stable, or more subject to serious change, than unions of gay men.
Andersson, Gunnar (February 2006). The Demographics of Same-Sex “Marriages” in Norway and Sweden (PDF) 43 (1). Demography. pp. 79–98. Text version.
A study done by the CDC found that , approximately 91% of all diagnosed HIV infections are from male-to-male sexual contact.
CDC website—http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/sexualbehaviors/pdf/hiv_factsheet_ymsm.pdf
our enemy has been quite visible lately. Lets see, unholy marriage well under way to mass acceptance. Now to his next project, his goal and mission all along. The institution of his unholy priesthood. Enter the Smead woman.
“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”
–Pope St. Felix III
Let us pray and fast daily.
Queen of the most Holy Rosary pray for us!
St. Joseph terror of demons pray for us!
St. Michael the Archangel prtotect us! defend us! pray for us!
I wish there were more vocations to the contemplative life so that the Church Militant had the prayer backup for all this spiritual warfare, but sadly, this is not happening. A few orders here and there, but no large numbers. We need prayer Marines.
That Picture made me feel sick to my stomach.
Don’t they know that floral wreaths are a symbol of fertility, not depravation?
Jeanne C- You present much too simplified a picture of the spectrum of Anglicanism. There are Anglicans who believe in seven sacraments and who have the same beliefs about the Eucharist as Catholics. When their orders were declared null and void in the last century, that type of Anglicans went to great lengths to procure valid orders from Old Catholic bishops, using Catholic ordination rites. There are, of course, other Anglicans of whom everything you say is true. Then there are those Episcopalians who aren’t even Christian any more.
Susan
The case of priestly abuse with which I am most familiar was in the Episcopal church, and the Episcopal bishop did his best to sweep it under the rug, and did his best to destroy the life of the priest who insisted on its being addressed. We Catholics hardly have a monopoly on either pederasty or episcopal malfeaseance.
SuperTradMum:
Your picture of Anglicanism owes too much to Belloc and not enough to the likes of Wilfird Ward. Faithful Anglicans certainly aren’t Catholics, and Anglicans as a group *are* part of the reason pluralism has eroded into secularism. But on the other hand, Godly Anglicans have under providence served as salt, helping to fend of off the rising tides of unbelief. In fact, the conservative Anglicans have led the way in fightig homosexuality, something more than a few Catholic prelates might learn from.
jm, I have lived in England for 12 years, and I beg to differ.
“I wish there were more vocations to the contemplative life so that the Church Militant had the prayer backup for all this spiritual warfare, but sadly, this is not happening. A few orders here and there, but no large numbers. We need prayer Marines.”
Supertradmum — indeed! Ergo, I humbly and respectfully ask for your prayers, as I am discerning what I’m pretty sure is a vocation to the contemplative life. Among the other reasons I feel drawn to that life, I really want to be that “prayer backup” because I see how desperately the Church needs it and how spread thin and worn our troops are. And to know that people running toward their perdition with glee absolutely breaks my heart. I can’t reach everybody, but if it turns out that I am indeed called to the contemplative religious life and that I can offer myself in a life of prayer to the One Who can reach everybody, that would make me one ridiculously happy woman.
Cafea Fruor, just DO it.
Cafea fruor-prayers for you in your vocation tonight! What a delightful calling! I would love to do it myself, if it weren’t for the husband and four children… ;)
Supertradmum: I totally want to just do it…it’s just there have been a couple of health-related snags, and I’m waiting to find out if they are minor obstacles to work through or solid walls that preclude religious life. The desire is entirely there, but I’ve got to make sure my health is.
PA mom: Thanks!! :)
Robinson achieved celebrity status with his ordination & like every celebrity, he confuses himself with God. In fact, he’s even worse than the rest because he pretends to be a man of God. I suspect that for a while, the media forgot about the problems in the Anglican/Episcopal church and therefore wasn’t paying enough attention to him. Of course now he’s riding the SSA “marriage” wave, which he thinks will get him back his spotlight. Hard as it may be, the best thing to do with this self-absorbed little hypocrite is to ignore him.
Heaven forbid, but if hundreds of millions of Catholics and hundreds of thousands of priests and thousands of bishops were to leave the teachings of the Church in order to abide by what is popular and only a mere handful of bishops were to remain who still taught the truth, even if they did so alone and in prison to a world that did not want to hear the Gospel but only wanted to pretend the Gospel and martyr those who dare to continue speaking the truth, they would still be bound to preach the truth when they got the opportunity to do it.
Robinson is telling prelates that when the faithful on their care are looking into their hearts and finding falsehoods as their guides that their shepherds ought to first be concerned that these misguided sheep might soon be “voting with their feet.” He thinks the Church ought to be changed to accommodate the malformed conscience, so souls can die obliviously and be delivered conveniently into the hands of the evil one directly from the pews, instead of dying out in the world, where the cold wind and the calls of the shepherds might have waken the soul to its true condition before it was too late.
Let’s hope that no one wants to lose a single soul, but there does get to be a point where more is lost by encouraging the strays to stay physically in place than by allowing the prodigals who insist on following falsehood to go out and realize their foolishness via the natural consequences of their choices.
didn’t Israel choose Baal over God? and fall away from God and lust for the fleshpots of Egypt? Didn’t the people choose Barabbas over Christ?
No doubt many Catholics feel the Church is wrong…..when shepherds are weak the sheep will go astray. When a majority of people thought the Sun revolved around the Earth it didn’t make it so, likewise no matter how many dissidents fall away from the Church, Her Truth remains Truth.
P.S. I forgot to mention that a few years ago, I was told that a former priest from my parish is one of their staff writers on religion. Since I never bother to read the rag known as WaPo, I can’t say for sure. What is sure is that his man left the priesthood & the Church to “find himself” as a homosexual and has dedicated his life to leading the poor, benighted sheep astray from the big bad RCC – apparently by explaining how Christ & his Gospels in fact affirm homosexuality. Says more than a little about WaPo’s credibility.
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