Pres. Obama sticks his nose into Catholic education in IRELAND

Another example of what this man wants: total isolation of any religious values in the private sphere alone. Pres. Obama is working either to intimidate or legislate or even TAX religious freedom out of the public square.

From the Scottish Catholic Observer!

US president undermines Catholic schools after Vatican Prefect praised them
The US President has made an alarming call for an end to Catholic education in Northern Ireland in spite of the fact that Archbishop Gerhard Müller told Scots that Catholic education was ‘a critical component of the Church.’

President Barack Obama (above), repeated the oft disproved claim that Catholic education increases division in front of an audience of 2000 young people, including many Catholics, at Belfast’s Waterfront hall when he arrived in the country this morning.

“If towns remain divided—if Catholics have their schools and buildings and Protestants have theirs, if we can’t see ourselves in one another and fear or resentment are allowed to harden—that too encourages division and discourages cooperation,” the US president said.  [And this is his business… how?  Trick question.  It isn’t.  It is part of an agenda he has for the public square in the USA.  He is trying to destroy conservative institutions.]

The US politician made the unfounded claim despite a top Vatican official spelling out the undeniable good done by Catholic education in a speech in Glasgow on Saturday and in his homily at Mass on Friday.

Archbishop Gerhard Müller , prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, told an audience in Scotland that Catholic education provided a rare place where ‘intellectual training, moral discipline and religious commitment would come together’ while giving the presitigous Cardinal Winning Lecture on Saturday to officially launch the St Andrews Foundation for Catholic teacher education at Glasgow University. [Did Müller manage to give his talk without a teleprompter?] During Mass at St Andrew’s Cathedral, Glasgow, on Friday night he said that ‘the Catholic school is vitally important … a critical component of the Church,’ adding that Catholic education provides young people with a wonderful opportunity to ‘grow up with Jesus.’

Mr Obama is in Northern Ireland to take part in the two day G8 Summit at the Lough Erne resort in Enneskillen.

Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a foreign visit to a Islamic nation where he told people on his arrival that they shouldn’t have madrasas.  Can you?

Did he when visiting, say, Israel, say “You Jews shouldn’t have synagogue schools and you Muslims shouldn’t have mosque schools.”  I can’t remember.  Did he?

Pres. Obama sticks his nose into Catholic education in IRELAND
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Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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94 Responses to Pres. Obama sticks his nose into Catholic education in IRELAND

  1. I certainly don’t remember anti-Muslim schools or anti-Jewish schools coming from the occupant in the white house. Kyrie eleison, Kyrie eleison, Kyrie eleison

  2. jhayes says:

    If I remember correctly, schools in the Republic of Ireland are built and their operating expenses paid by he government. Whichever religion has the most members in the area served by the school gets to oversee the school. So, a “Catholic school” is a government school operated under the direction of a local Catholic priest.

    It’s quite different from the U.S. system where a ” Catholic school” is built and operated by a Catholic church and is independent of the public (government) school system.

    I don’t know whether the system in Northern Ireland is the same as in the Republic.

  3. DisturbedMary says:

    Will every Catholic who voted for this creature please send back their baptismal certificate?

  4. Laura98 says:

    Hope my family that remained behind in Enneskillen are protesting his presence there…. Ugh. How long before our dear leader starts speaking out against Catholic Education here in the States because of it’s “divisiveness?” Will homeschooling be next? It’s only a matter of time. Pray!

  5. bartlep says:

    He is just carrying out his Marxist ideology: breakdown the family, destroy the churches, infiltrate the schools.

  6. wmeyer says:

    Kim Jong Obama. A national disgrace. But in this respect, he and Jimmy Carter are related: neither knows when to shut up.

  7. Dcduo says:

    Obama is now a unionist! The best schools in Belfast are Catholic schools (infact the majority of N.Ireland). I don’t know what you’re thinking Jim, it has been said for a long time that integrated schools would mark a powerful blow against the Catholic (political) majority here. Not to mention an extra hit for the terrible Catechisis we get anyway.

    (I’m saying that having come out of an integrated highschool).

    It’s nothing different. He is an anti-Catholic maniac. Seemingly both politically and spiritual.

  8. Chris Garton-Zavesky says:

    Jim,

    In another forum I commented that I have little patience for the Gnostic version of traditional Catholicism — coming from people who are quite sure that there is some secret conspiracy to …… whatever. To recognize that evil is afoot, one need not rely on secret conspiracies (or, as C.S. Lewis put it, I think, the only doctrine which can be proven merely by reading the newspaper is the existence of Original Sin.)

    Before I get accused of dragging this conversation off topic: Mr. Obama has a demonstrated track record of actions which are absolutely hostile to the practice of the Catholic faith. Does he have some secret agenda? I don’t need to be a psychic, a shrink or his confessor. I need merely to see the actions he commits, because then I don’t have to look for some secret agenda.

  9. Dcduo says:

    I forgot to mention (for our Americans) there aren’t really any “protestant” schools here. The vast majority call themselves “integrated”. Therefore there are really only schools and Catholic schools, what he is saying is directly laying the blame on the Catholics.

  10. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    Fr Z asks, “And this is his business… how?” Well, one might say, “Homo est: nihil humani a eo alienum putat”. But what would, say, common courtesy suggest? And what circumspection and respect might one reasonably expect from a visiting… ‘dignitary’ (even one of Irish descent)?

    What does this anaphora (in the rhetorical sense!) really say?

    The third repetition might go with the “that” clause (though are things as ‘hardened’ now as in ages past? and what of reasonable “fear” – say, of terrorist murder? – and of toowhatever-extent- justifiable “resentment”? – which would require serious attention and not pretentious posturing).

    The first and second “if” clauses have nothing intrinsic to do with the “that” clause, and the second, particularly, does seem ominous. As if The Expert has spoken, ‘Obama locuta, causa finita’!

    As C.S. Lewis (that Belfast – Church of Ireland – Protestant who had Tolkien among his best friends and spiritual benefactors) wrote, 67 years ago, “Where the tide flows towards increasing State control, Christianity, with its claims in one way personal and in the other way ecumenical and both ways antithetical to omnicompetent government, must always in fact ( though not for a long time yet in words) be treated as an enemy. Like learning, like the family, like any ancient and liberal profession, like the common law, it gives the individual a standing ground against the State.”

    If jhayes is correct, does this not (to some extent) in fact mean that the taxes extracted from Catholics and Protestants for education go to provide Catholic and Protestant schools, rather than the parishoners and parents having to pay fully, twice?

  11. Clinton R. says:

    Emperor Obama at it again. Strutting around, shooting his big mouth off again. The very mention of his name, or the sound of his voice makes me sick. I pray he is converted from his evil ways. Our Lord said we are either with Him or against Him. It is obvious what side Obama has placed himself.

    He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. Matt. 12:30

  12. Simon_GNR says:

    As far as I know, on his recent visit to the U.S.A., David Cameron, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, didn’t tell the U.S. how to organise its education system, so why should Mr Obama think he has the right to poke his nose into the internal affairs of the United Kingdom, such as the structure of publicly-funded education in Northern Ireland?
    Having said that, I think that segregated education in Northern Ireland might have contributed to sectarian division in the past. But that doesn’t mean to say there shouldn’t be Catholic, Protestant and non-denominational, integrated schools. It’s possible for tolerance and “good neighbourliness” to be promoted in a mixed education system incorporating all three types of school. There needs to be a commitment to peaceful, respectful co-existence and basic Christian charity, such as exemplified by the Archbishop Derek Worlock (Catholic)/Bishop David Sheppard (Anglican) friendship in Liverpool in the 1980’s which helped greatly to diminish inter-denominational ill-feeling and conflict.

  13. NBW says:

    Obama mentions Catholic and Protestant schools and is silent about the Muslim schools in Ireland. They do exist and they are state funded.

  14. jhayes says:

    According to he Wall Street Journal:

    “President Barack Obama and U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron visited schoolchildren at one of the few integrated schools in Northern Ireland Monday afternoon on the first day of this week’s G-8 summit.

    The two visited the Enniskillen Integrated Primary School, the only integrated primary school in County Fermanagh. Founded in the aftermath of the 1987 Enniskillen Remembrance Day bombing, in which a Provisional IRA bomb killed 11 people and injured 63 more, the school maintains a careful balance of Catholics and Protestants.

    Integrated schools represent only 6% of the primary and secondary school sector in Northern Ireland.”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/06/17/photos-obama-cameron-visit-northern-ireland-school/

    There’s no mention in the article of any comments by either Cameron or Obama about integrated schools although it wouldn’tt be surprising if, during the visit, they complimented the Northern Irish group that is developing integrated schools.

    Here is their website: http://www.nicie.org/

  15. acardnal says:

    “If towns remain divided—if Catholics have their schools and buildings and Protestants have theirs, if we can’t see ourselves in one another and fear or resentment are allowed to harden—that too encourages division and discourages cooperation,” the US president said.

    Sounds like something right out of Mao Tse-tung’s “Little Red Book.”

  16. Pingback: President Obama says Catholic schools cause division in Ireland » The Curt Jester

  17. StJude says:

    oh good grief.. how is this any of Obama’s business?!

  18. Supertradmum says:

    There are two problems: one is that many Irish people love Obama and surprisingly, even some so-called conservative or traditional Catholics in the Republic. Why? He is a Democrat, the party of the American Irish. Secondly, Obama is speaking to a real problem, which is none of his business, but which he must have been briefed on while in the North. This problem is the inadequacies of the religious based schools on the island. Sadly, in some areas of Ireland, the education is not up to snuff, although the Republic has a higher standard than that of the UK. The deterioration of religion in the schools is similar to that in America; where there is government money, there is government control.

    I am sure the aides were feeding the prompter with some input. But, this man has so much arrogance, he cannot even see how foolish he looks making a comment on the education systems of other nations. Who does he think he is?

  19. Pingback: President Obama says Catholic schools cause division in Ireland | News You Can Use

  20. Scott says:

    Oh my goodness.
    President Obama is speaking at a school about how N. Ireland, a part of the UK, can encourage the country to continue on its long road to peace, and away from the segregation of the past that has led the Northern Irish to mistrust one another. He is not lecturing (in the pejorative sense). He is not sticking his nose in… He is saying that a place like Northern Ireland, with its history of violence between Protestants and Catholics, needs to find ways for its people to relate to each other more: have Catholic and Protestant children go to school together.
    As a Catholic, I too would encourage all countries across the world to build a clear separation between religion and government. I do not want the government to have any influence on my faith and vice versa. The USA used to be a virulently anti-catholic country. My father’s mother, Episcopalian through and through (she could hardly stand that my dad married a…Methodist), would have been horrified to know that I married an Irish-Catholic woman and I am sure spins to this day in her grave since I became Catholic myself (and she was wrong!). As far as she was concerned (as were a large majority of this nation’s leadership from the founding generation until the 1960’s) Catholics did not belong here.
    Again, as a Catholic, I think Obama is correct.

  21. Ann Roth says:

    Blaming the Catholics for the divisions in Ireland? Ooh, that’s pretty rich. My Irish is coming out….

    But staying on topic-Father Z is right. It is none of his business. Our public schools are a mess so it is kinda funny that he is lecturing anyone about schools. These remarks of his strike me as so odd as to be scary. Is he mad/crazy?

    I only wish the Catholic schools in the US created “division” that way we would know they were teaching the Faith. Jesus didn’t come to unite but to divide.

  22. Eraser says:

    I suppose that when someone is given the Nobel prize for doing absolutely nothing, it’s only natural for him to tell the rest of the world how to educate their children.

    His arrogance has become unfathomable. God help me, but I cannot even bring myself to pray for him.

  23. Suburbanbanshee says:

    Scott — Yes, why doesn’t Northern Ireland start busing kids from Catholic neighborhoods to Protestant neighborhoods for school, and vice versa? I mean, busing was such a total success in the US, and kids just love to ride buses for hours every day. Plus it’s great to encourage the different groups to move somewhere out to the suburbs and farther away from each other, thus bringing down property values and creating more empty eyesores in urban areas!

    Now, Obama went to school during that period in the US, but he avoided busing by living in Hawaii and going to a school for kids whose parents paid big money to have them away from the riffraff.

    In general, guests should keep their big mouths shut if they don’t have anything helpful to say.

  24. Scott says:

    This “guest” is the leader of the free world: that gives him not just a say but a bull horn
    It is interesting that you bring up US integration. Are you saying that due to its difficulty that it wasn’t worth doing? I agree that the results have been mixed, but the goal was and still is worth it. I would encourage you to read/ the speech. I know it may be challenging since you may not be able to stand the site of President Obama much as I could not stomach hearing/seeing vp cheney or Bill Donahue. But aren’t we reminded to love our enemies in Matthews gospel? I don’t read a lot of love in many of the comments to this article. I aim that at myself just as much as anyone else. Catholics in Northern Ireland Scotland America…everywhere…sound tribal when they talk the way I people commented above.

  25. Kerry says:

    From what experience or education does the President (“Cough, spit”) presume to speak with authority or competence on anything?

  26. Ann Roth says:

    Scott,

    The Irish are a tribal people. They were called clans. The native Irish became Catholic, so yes, the Catholic are tribal.

    The topic of the post is not whether integration works or not. The topic is the arrogance of this president to lecture N. Ireland about their Catholic schools; his targeting of Catholic schools and his hypocrisy in ignoring Muslim schools. Given the history of British domination of Ireland, the divisions pre date the establishment of these schools. These schools did not create the division between Catholics and Protestants.

    An important issue not mentioned here is that parents should be able to determine the education path for their child whether it be traditional school, public or private, or home school. This president and his supporters do not support parents rights in this area or any other. This may be just the latest salvo in the battle to take away parental rights. Who is this guy to tell anyone what school to send their kids to?

  27. Matt R says:

    Supertradmum, it’s none of his business, and as others have said, the Church-run schools are better……

  28. jhayes says:

    i looked up the speech and found the reference to schools is in a section praising the Northern Ireland government for their efforts toward “Building a United Community”

    “We need you to get this right. And what’s more, you set an example for those who seek a peace of their own. Because beyond these shores, right now, in scattered corners of the world, there are people living in the grip of conflict — ethnic conflict, religious conflict, tribal conflicts — and they know something better is out there. And they’re groping to find a way to discover how to move beyond the heavy hand of history, to put aside the violence. They’re studying what you’re doing. And they’re wondering, perhaps if Northern Ireland can achieve peace, we can, too. You’re their blueprint to follow. You’re their proof of what is possible — because hope is contagious. They’re watching to see what you do next.

    Now, some of that is up to your leaders. As someone who knows firsthand how politics can encourage division and discourage cooperation, I admire the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly all the more for making power-sharing work. That’s not easy to do. It requires compromise, and it requires absorbing some pain from your own side. I applaud them for taking responsibility for law enforcement and for justice, and I commend their effort to “Building a United Community” — important next steps along your transformational journey.

    Because issues like segregated schools and housing, lack of jobs and opportunity — symbols of history that are a source of pride for some and pain for others — these are not tangential to peace; they’re essential to it. If towns remain divided — if Catholics have their schools and buildings, and Protestants have theirs — if we can’t see ourselves in one another, if fear or resentment are allowed to harden, that encourages division. It discourages cooperation.

    Ultimately, peace is just not about politics. It’s about attitudes; about a sense of empathy; about breaking down the divisions that we create for ourselves in our own minds and our own hearts that don’t exist in any objective reality, but that we carry with us generation after generation.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/06/17/remarks-president-obama-and-mrs-obama-town-hall-youth-northern-ireland

    The total speech is about fifteen times as long as what I have quoted above.

  29. Elizabeth D says:

    That is so evil. First they got the sisters to all quit the Catholic schools in order to engage in other self-chosen ministries, though the sisters knew perfectly well that this would be very harmful to the Catholic school system.

  30. Dennis says:

    Scott –

    “As a Catholic, I too would encourage all countries across the world to build a clear separation between religion and government. I do not want the government to have any influence on my faith and vice versa.”

    Can you please explain how what you want would work? For example, let’s look at abortion. The government says it is ok, our faith says not. Do we simply let abortion remain legal? The courts in Canada says speaking against homosexuality is hate speech, our faith says it is spreading the truth about human sexuality. If we separate religion and government, will the government allow what they consider ‘hate speech’ to go on? If they don’t, then the government is influencing your faith. In short, it seems to me that what you want is impossible if you take a call to evangelize and promote good as an integral part of your faith.

    “This ‘guest’ is the leader of the free world”

    I think citizens of other free countries might take some issue with that. You are correct his position does give him a bull horn, but simply shouting louder does not make one’s opinion any more educated or correct.

    Finally, I do love my enemies as I pray for their souls, especially Obama’s, every day. Love does not mean only writing positive messages or downplaying evils done by one, but praying for and calling that person to conversion.

    I hope you have a good night.

  31. Clinton says:

    … Says the president who eschews public schools for his own children, sending them to
    an exclusive DC Quaker school.

  32. Saor Alba says:

    Father Z asks, “Did Müller manage to give his talk without a teleprompter?”

    I was at the St Andrew’s Foundation launch at the University of Glasgow and the Archbishop did not use a teleprompter but did appear to read his speech from a prepared printed copy.

  33. pmullane says:

    Obama is a walking example of the sinister and the stupid. This latest comment is probably more of the latter, but does illuminate the former.

    I suppose it would have been too much to expect a ‘journalist’ to ask the sun child that if integrated schools are so hunky dory, how comes so many American children like to shoot their peers who attend the same schools as them?

    “This ‘guest’ is the leader of the free world”

    With respect, ‘leader of the free world’ as a title which American Presidents have conferred largely upon themselves. What meaning it ever had outside of the US has been lost entirely.

  34. jaykay says:

    I’m wondering whether the President, or his scriptwriters, may not in fact be confusing elective denominational education with the U.S. experience of segregation? Apples and oranges here. Parents in Ireland, North and South, choose to send their children to schools embracing their religion: the language used seems to be implying that there’s some sort of coercive force keeping them apart, as with the active discrimation against Blacks. There’s not. Both communities want it that way and Big Daddy State – which is nothing more than the will of the people – can butt out. It does not “know better”, whatever its pretensions.

    It’s a complicated historical picture in Ireland, and simplistic action programmes are not going to be some sort of an overnight magic bullet. We’re talking about a slow process that will take generations. The peace process is delicate enough at this stage and it does not need lefty ideologues (and I’m not referring to the Pres. here, I mean the home-grown ones, to whom his remarks will unfortunately be manna) bulldozing their agendas through and destroying systems that at present provide a very valuable service (my cousins who lived outisde Belfast went to considerable trouble to get their kids into a denominational school because of the excellent education – and it wasn’t Catholic b.t.w.).

    jhayes says: “If I remember correctly, schools in the Republic of Ireland are built and their operating expenses paid by the government.”

    It’s a bit more complex than that. As regards primary schools, in many cases the local committee (the Board of Management) provides the site for the school and also a proportion of the costs of construction. The site is vested in the local Bishop (Catholic or Protestant) and the Parish Priest will be the Chairman of the Board. Teachers’ salaries are paid by the State (i.e. us, the taxpayers). This is for reasons dating back to the mid-19th century. Obviously nowadays there are various community and multi-denominational schools etc. etc. but the majority would still be as described. Nonetheless, it’s very democratic and we like it that way. Statists/Stalinists, please keep away.

  35. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    The possibility of an element of well-meaning heavy-handedness, got me thinking of the Typos of Constans II, and the martydoms of Sts. Martin I and Maximus Confessor.

    “Ultimately, peace is just not about politics. It’s about […] breaking down the divisions that we create for ourselves in our own minds and our own hearts that don’t exist in any objective reality”, says Mr. Obama. And of the seventh-century events, Jaroslav Pelikan wrote, “To a superficial or supercilious observer […], this might seem to be a typically useless set of controversies over abstract issues, and there were many in the seventh century who thought so, too, particularly various politicians, both imperial and ecclesiastical.”

    As St. Maximus recounts things at his trial, “The Typos does not prescribe a denial of the holy statements but rather a silence in order to arrange a peace”, said Gregory. To which St. Maximus replied, “Silence according to the divine Scripture is denial as well.”

    But to speak of ‘Typical’ Obama, in this special sense, would not be enough. He does not merely want ” a silence in order to arrange a peace”, but pretends to know “the divisions […] don’t exist in any objective reality”, and appears to think “Catholics [ought not to] have their schools and buildings, and Protestants [ought not to] have theirs”, as a corollary.

    Perhaps jaykay (or another as well informed) could say how far Mr. Obama seems to be following a line supportive not only of home-grown N. Irish “lefty ideologues […] to whom his remarks will unfortunately be manna”, but also the Cameron(-Clegg) Government, which presumably finds the distinctive legal position of N. Ireland inconvenient for its uniform social-engineering aspirations, not least where schools are concerned.

  36. wmeyer says:

    I think something basic is being overlooked: It costs Obama nothing to stir the pot wherever he goes. Short of some nefarious shenanigans in DC, he will be gone at the end of his current term. He has his goals in mind, Alinsky inspired, and favors (in my own view) destruction of the West, in favor of Maoist tyranny, or perhaps a Sharia state. And no doubt he also favors a world government. Maybe that’s his real ambition: World Administrator/Dictator.

  37. jaykay says:

    Venerator Sti Lot asks: “Perhaps jaykay… could say how far Mr. Obama seems to be following a line supportive not only of home-grown N. Irish “lefty ideologues […] to whom his remarks will unfortunately be manna”…”

    Predictably enough, our lefty luvvies are all of a swoon! Where better to find an example of how they’re already using this issue than in the “paper of record” (i.e. what “we” want to record) itself, the Irish Times. Quotes from its slavering editorial:

    “But there is a distance to go in creating healthy community relations. Addressing segregated education and housing are the most urgent.”

    Note the loaded use of “segregated” in regard to education. Same ideological distortion at work. Get those kids away from the eeeevul Church(es)-dominated schools that the poor little dears are forced into, so’s we can give them a good healthy dose of secularism, which all of a sudden will herald the New Dawn, heal the divisions, abolish global warming, solve world hunger, save nice cuddly polar bears… [oh yeah, and get them used to the real agenda i.e. abortion, same-sex “marriage” and no doubt euthanasia in the not-too-distant. But we’ll keep that one under wraps for the present].

    It goes on to further reveal the mindset: “There are indications the long-frozen landscape of the Republic may also be thawing when Enda Kenny can say he is a Taoiseach who happens to be a Catholic, not a Catholic Taoiseach.”

    Further comment on the above is superfluous. Anyway, yes, the President’s remarks have been put into play already by the usual suspects – as expected. There is nothing at all from the Irish Bishops on this, nothing on the website of what used to be the Catholic “Communications” Office (now the Bishops’ Conference site). As expected.

  38. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    jaykay,
    Thanks for the additional detail!
    Do you (and/or any other reader) have any sense of how this fits in with Scottish, Welsh, and UK Parliamentary, and Government (etc.) plans where getting “them used to the real agenda” (as you put it) are involved?

  39. jhayes says:

    jaykay, I think the starting point is different in Northern Ireland because of the religiously segregated neighborhoods in which many Catholics and Protestants live – in many cases in Belfast separated by high “peace walls” that run though back yards and close off streets at mid-block to keep the people in adjoining neighborhoods apart. The walls were a way of reducing violence during the Troubles, but now lock people into living in all-Catholic and all-Protestant worlds in which they don’t know people of the other group as friends and don’t feel able to work together with people of the other religion to build a stable society.

    The feeling seems to be that it would still be too dangerous to tear down the “peace walls” and open up the blocked streets between neighborhoods so the question is how to find ways that Catholics and Protestants can learn to know each other and to live and work together in peace.

    Integrated schools is one possibility that some people like this Northern Ireland group are pursuing:

    http://www.nicie.org/

  40. jaykay says:

    Venerator: sorry, you did ask that before. Not all that familiar with the situation on what some people mistakenly call “mainland UK” but Northern Ireland has a devolved administration and I would say that majority support in both communities is broadly in favour of the status quo as regards denominational education. The metropolitan elite would of course regard that as hopelessly trogloditic but luckily they can’t just impose their agenda. Yet. Although given the complete dependence of N.I. on the UK Treasury it will I’m sure be only a matter of time. Same as us in the Republic and the E.U.

  41. Bosco says:

    One word…’Antichrist’

  42. jaykay says:

    jhayes: not just as black and white as that. Many, many communities in N.I. have never had any need for “peace” walls. Yet, as I remarked, there is a genuine demand for separate schools. Why not? They are not in themselves a bad thing, despite the loaded commentaries on “segregated” education. I, and many others throughout Ireland, have a deep distrust of the motives of (some of) those pushing the “integration” issue.

  43. jhayes says:

    Jaykay, I went to a Catholic school for 9 years which was exclusively Catholic and probably more segregated than the Catholic schools in Waterford and Limerick where parts of my family lived. In both of those places, the only school was Catholic so I assume that the children of any non-Catholic family that settled in those rural areas would have gone to that Catholic school and there would have been some mixing there.

    I’m glad I had that Catholic education and I’m not at all opposed to keeping Catholic schools in Northern Ireland but I do think we have to find ways to end the isolation of the two groups.

  44. SKAY says:

    Interesting who else has a problem with Catholic schools. Also interesting that Obama made no
    comment about Muslim schools. Is a pattern developing?

    http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Central-Java:-fatwa-against-Catholic-schools,-forbidden-to-Muslims-28200.html

    wmeyer said–
    ” And no doubt he also favors a world government. Maybe that’s his real ambition: World Administrator/Dictator.”
    We certainly know that one of his big benefactors-Soros wants one world government. There is a video of him saying so.

  45. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    jaykay,
    Thanks for your further response! You say, “I would say that majority support in both communities is broadly in favour of the status quo as regards denominational education.” That was my guess. I also have a sort of impression (or guess?) that the majority in both would each have the same (orthodox) response to what you called “the real agenda” , and even to some extent, in some cases, cooperated practically in opposing it. Is that to cheery a take on things?

  46. jaykay says:

    jhayes: the “isolation” you speak of is not the case in the greater part of Northern Ireland, as I have said. My family have lived there; I live in a mixed border area. And therefore imposed solutions are not the answer, however well-meaning. People who live there will find their own solutions, if they happen to feel that there exists a problem in the first place. Let them do their own thing. We don’t have to find a “solution” for them.

    Venerator: no, rem acu tetigisti, puto :)

  47. acardnal says:

    jaykay wrote, “People who live there will find their own solutions, if they happen to feel that there exists a problem in the first place. ”

    Agree.

    And it most certainly is not Obama’s job to find a solution for other sovereign nations. He has enough problems in the USA to deal with – most of which he is not.

  48. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    jaykay,

    Then let us hope and pray that neither ‘divide et impera’ or simply trying to crush everyone equally succeeds!

    Mr. Obama said, “They’re studying what you’re doing” – unless they are convinced already of something else, as reported in a Reuters story linked from ‘independent.ie’ (!):

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/06/nigeria-islamic-jihadists-murder-eleven-in-attack-on-school.html

  49. jhayes says:

    Jaykay wrote: “we don’t have to find a solution for them”

    No, indeed. As I understand it the push for integrated schools is a home-grown program by residents of Northern Ireland, who have been working at it since 1989. According to their webpage, which I linked above, there are currently 62 integrated schools.

    It’s the parents’ decision if they want to send a child to an integrated school . The website says they had to turn away 400 applicants last year because of lack of spaces.

  50. Let’s ask the intercession of Saint Patrick ~ Please pray for us, St. Patrick, and for the children who heard the Obama-speech in Ireland, and for our president’s conversion.

    + Saint Patrick’s Breastplate, a prayer to share:
    http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/st-patricks-breastplate.html

  51. jaykay says:

    jhayes: Yes indeed, and that exists also in the Republic. Let it thrive, after all it’s a valid expression of the subsidiarity that our system in fact was designed to support. B.t.w., not surprised that you have family in that area. The Hayes name is traditionally associated with the Tipperary/Waterford region.

    BridgetTheresa: don’t forget to invoke St. Bridget your own patron as well! She’s very associated with my area, in fact her shrine is quite close to me and there’s still a pilgrimage on February 1st. She’s traditionally known as “Mary of the Gael”. A Naomh Brighdhe, guidhe orainn anois.

  52. jhayes says:

    Jaykay, July 12 is coming. It should give us a chance to see how well the two sides are getting on.

  53. rcg says:

    ‘O’zymandias.

  54. Subvet says:

    Oh Mommy, please make the stupid man shut up!

  55. jaykay says:

    jhayes: it will provide a view of how well they’re getting along all right… in certain deliberately tribalised areas where conflict will be ritualuasied. As in a sense it always has been. Certain interests have certain vested interests, if you know what I mean. But overall it’s nothing like some years past.

    Like I said, it’ll take generations. Which is unsurprising, given the legacy of some 4oo years.

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  57. Kypapist says:

    Reg: Hilarious! I didn’t know “O’bama” was Irish!

  58. jhayes says:

    I didn’t know “O’bama” was Irish!

    The genealogy service at Trinity College Dublin has traced the Kearney family history (President Obamas’s ancestors) and the Benn family history (his closest living relatives in Ireland).

    http://www.eneclann.ie/exhibitions/barack-obamas-irish-ancestry/

    As the song says: “There’s no One as Irish as Barack O’Bama”

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  66. shin says:

    What kind of education does the President wants children to have? Quite a different one from a Christian education. And while with a stated purpose to teach only in certain spheres, actually instructing and propagandizing with quite a different set of ‘morals’.

    History keeps on the same course, this has happened before..

    It reminds me of a quote. . .

    “Then they want to withdraw the school from the influence of the Church; the school, they say, is an institution for instructing the young. But the school is by no means merely a place for instructing, but it is at the same time and pre-eminently the place for the education of the young. Our children take with them to school not only their intellects, but also their hearts and their souls, and the latter must receive quiet as much attention as the former. Just as conscientious parents will not be indifferent as to how and by whom their children receive instruction, as regards their intellects, they should also take a great interest in seeing that the right light shall shine into their hearts and souls. And this light is religion. The child’s heart is naturally turned towards God, and is grateful to those who will lead it here. Oh, now touching is the sight of a child at prayer, and how close it draws to those who are teaching it to pray.

    It is, therefore, not only wrong but also ungrateful to try and take away the children from those who are constantly holding before the little ones all that is divine, great, and holy, and who instruct them at the same time in all they need to know for the fulfillment of their duties as good citizens. “I am not a school master, and cannot judge between the different methods of teaching,” said the old Duke of Wellington in the House of Lords in London, “but that if religion is not made the foundation of teaching it will be your fault if in future the number of clever rogues in the world is largely increased.”

    St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney

  67. shin says:

    Or Pope St. Pius X:

    ‘Obviously the need of this Christian instruction is accentuated by the decline of our times and morals. It is even more demanded by the existence of those public schools, lacking all religion, where everything holy is ridiculed and scorned. There both teachers’ lips and students’ ears are inclined to godlessness. We are referring to those schools which are unjustly called neutral or lay. In reality, they are nothing more than the stronghold of the powers of darkness.’

    But there are plenty more statements like this from Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius XI, etc. They always want to tear the children away from Christianity.. and teach their own beliefs, with hundreds of to some who are unaware of how important it is, plausible sounding excuses.

  68. LarryW2LJ says:

    I would like to say something witty or wise, but words fail me right now. I am close to the boiling point regarding this, and right now, I dare not check my BP, as I am afraid of what I would see. All I have to say is “Thank you so very much!”, all you Catholics for Obama and Knights for Obama and any other “Catholic” who was stupid enough to vote for this man. I hope you’re all so very satisfied with what you got.

    Oh, what’s that you say, you didn’t think he was this blatantly anti-Catholic? WE TRIED TO TELL YOU, BUT YOU WOULDN’T LISTEN! YOU INSISTED THAT WE WERE IGNORANT CRACKPOTS!

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  78. As much as it goes against my grain, Barack may actually have a point here. Since Catholic schools started receiving GOVERNMENT subsidizing, the GOVERNMENT has been able to dictate books used or NOT TO BE USED thereby dictating what is taught. So there is a redundancy in infrastructure which may actually be unnecessary. It opens up a can of worms as to if the CATHOLIC schools or really CATHOLIC. This is something as a father I’ve had to address. Homeschooling has been the solution there. Unfortunately, until we have the free labor of the nuns again, we won’t be able to fund parish-based schools. You can’t really bite the hand that feeds you.

  79. Venerator Sti Lot says:

    Raylan Alleman,

    To try to review some details you did not spell out:

    It would be possible for governments to refrain from taking the money (as taxes) from those not wishing to send their children to state schools, or simply to return it (or, presumably, a reduced portion of it) to them.

    I do not know if that happens anywhere. Something somewhat like it happens in some places – and is probably regularly under attack by those who want more state control.

    That state interference even in completely privately-funded schools is also on the rise, or aspired to, widely, throughout ‘the west’, notably as to content – such as, what (Biblical) teachings no (‘church’) school will be allowed to teach, what state-dictated ‘morality’, philosophical anthropology, etc. no school may be exempted from instilling.

    Are there many (western) nation-states where home-schooling is ‘permitted’? I know of various ones where it is not, where it is effectively criminalized, and I suspect that many aspire to eradicate it where it exists.

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  89. jhayes says:

    Catholic League supports Obama:

    “Bill Donohue comments on President Barack Obama’s speech given in Ireland where he mentioned Catholic schools:

    There are plenty of reasons to be critical of President Obama’s policies as they relate to the Catholic Church, and I have not been shy in stating them. But the reaction on the part of conservatives, many of whom are Catholic, over his speech in Ireland, is simply insane. Never did Obama say he wants “an end to Catholic education.” Indeed, he never said anything critical about the nature of Catholic schools. It makes me wonder: Have any of his critics bothered to actually read his speech?
    Obama’s speech, given in Northern Ireland, properly spoke of the divisions between Catholics and Protestants. He lauded the Good Friday Agreement, noting that “There are still wounds that haven’t healed, and communities where tensions and mistrust hangs in the air.” He said that “segregated schools and housing” add to the problem. Then he said, “If towns remain divided—if Catholics have their schools and buildings, and Protestants have theirs—if we can’t see ourselves in one another, if fear or resentment are allowed to harden, that encourages division.”

    Obama was not condemning Catholic schools—he was condemning segregation. He was calling attention to the fact that where social divisions exist, the prospects for social harmony are dimmed. How can anyone reasonable disagree with this observation? Moreover, it should hardly be surprising that a black president would be sensitive to segregation, whether based on race or religion.
    Some are also condemning Obama for disrespecting a Vatican official who days earlier touted Catholic education before a Scottish audience. So what? Obama’s speech, which no doubt was written before Archbishop Gerhard Müller spoke, mentioned Catholic schools in conjunction with Catholic buildings, the purpose of which was not to assess the worth of Catholic education (or Catholic buildings!), but to criticize religious divisions. In short, ripping comments out of context is an old game, and it is patently unfair to speakers and writers.

    http://www.catholicleague.org/obamas-anti-catholic-speech/

  90. acardnal says:

    Maybe the Norwegians will give Obama another Peace Prize for doing what he did the last time he received one: Nothing!

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  93. Scott says:

    Ann: My comments next to yours below:
    The native Irish became Catholic, so yes, the Catholic are tribal–Wwhere in the Bible or church law does it say that being tribal (sticking with “your kind”) is okay?

    The topic of the post is not whether integration works or not. The topic is the arrogance of this president to lecture N. Ireland about their Catholic schools; his targeting of Catholic schools and his hypocrisy in ignoring Muslim schools. Given the history of British domination of Ireland, the divisions pre date the establishment of these schools. These schools did not create the division between Catholics and Protestants–President Obama is saying that if Northern Ireland wants to continue on its path to less violence and more understanding they need to integrate their children Protestants with Catholics more and schools are one way to do that.

    An important issue not mentioned here is that parents should be able to determine the education path for their child whether it be traditional school, public or private, or home school–I couldn’t agree more.

    This president and his supporters do not support parents rights in this area or any other–that is not true, where is your evidence?.

    This may be just the latest salvo in the battle to take away parental rights. Who is this guy to tell anyone what school to send their kids to? He’s the president of a country with a vested interest in seeing two allies–Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland–make peace. You are looking for something that doesn’t exist…a president who wants to control parents. Public schools do not exist for the benefit of children or their parents. They exist for the benefit of the social order. We are better off in a well-educated world. If parents would rather put their kid in a private school…so be it.

  94. Scott says:

    Dennis, my reply to you (sorry, I’ve been away) is below.

    Also, thank you for the civil tone of your questions and thoughtful questions. I pray my comments also come across just as civil.

    “Can you please explain how what you want would work? For example, let’s look at abortion. The government says it is ok, our faith says not. Do we simply let abortion remain legal?”

    — I think we have to because we are not following church/biblical teaching in so many areas and thank goodness. Do we want to return to the days of fines/jail time for nonobservance of the Sabbath? Or how about divorce? Should we return to a time when women or men in abusive relationships had a near-impossible time trying to get a divorce since Jesus’ only injunction is whether or not the other party in a marriage is unfaithful? How about women speaking in churches? That’s against Biblical tradition too. Or how about a kid being illegitimate? Do we want to return to a time when people were suspect because the people who gave birth to them were not married when they were born?

    The courts in Canada says speaking against homosexuality is hate speech, our faith says it is spreading the truth about human sexuality. If we separate religion and government, will the government allow what they consider ‘hate speech’ to go on?

    — I think whenever we hear one of these whoppers about a court somewhere we are not getting the whole story. If someone says they think being gay is a sin they are not going to lose their job unless their job is tied to being equal and fair to the whole society…a government employee say…a teacher. But if you end up with someone like the crazies showing up to funerals with “God Hates Fags” posters, I agree that the people who do that deserve to be jailed/fined/thumb-screwed for being so insensitive and that their precious first amendment right to freedom of speech goes right out the window. Unfortunately for all of us our activist judge supreme court thinks differently for fear of the slippery slope.

    If they don’t, then the government is influencing your faith. In short, it seems to me that what you want is impossible if you take a call to evangelize and promote good as an integral part of your faith.

    –Yep and James 1:2 says “Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,” Jesus said “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”. Yet I’d like to see real examples of any Christian in America truly being put to the test for their faith by their government. And I mean a REAL test. European Christians…some of the “saints”… used to BOIL other Christians. Used to burn people at the stake for being heretics. Actually burn them alive. Rip out their nails. Priests supported slavery of Africans. All with the approval of the church.

    I think citizens of other free countries might take some issue with that. You are correct his position does give him a bull horn, but simply shouting louder does not make one’s opinion any more educated or correct

    –No, but he’s the leader of two important allies (the UK and Republic of Ireland) who need to continue to work on being nicer to each other…seeing themselves in each other…compassion…the whole point of his speech.

    Finally, I do love my enemies as I pray for their souls, especially Obama’s, every day. Love does not mean only writing positive messages or downplaying evils done by one, but praying for and calling that person to conversion.

    –but he’s already a professed Christian…convert to what?

    Again, Dennis, thank you for your civil tone and interesting questions. I hope my comments also came across that way.